Digital Negatives with Epson R800: pizza wheel marks

padgreen · Mar 30, 2009

Hi, this is my first post on this forum so hello.

I've been experimenting making digital negatives using an Epson R800 printer. I've been using Permajet OHP Transfer Film, which as I understand is essentially the same as Pictorio and printing onto Ilford Multigrade IV FB Glossy finished paper. I've been making the digital negatives using the Epson printer driver and making a correction curve to apply in Photoshop: I haven't managed to get my head around the process using QuadToneRIP.

I've been really impressed with the quality of the images I get, except for one detail - pizza wheel marks. From a normal viewing distance I can ascertain that there are some marks, which appear as slight banding, which is especially visible in lighter areas such as sky. When I look at the print under a magnifying glass I can see that the banding is actually pizza wheel marks all over the print. Also, I get a few other marks, which seem to be due to scratches on the OHP medium, caused again by the printer.

I did some searching on this forum before posting and found one post from 2006 describing a similar problem. I suspect that the solution my lie in a newer printer.

I'd be interested to hear from anyone using an Epson R2880. Do you get pizza wheel marks? If not the 2880, what is the best A3 size printer for making digital negatives?

Many thanks for reading my post.

pschwart · Mar 30, 2009

padgreen said:
Hi, this is my first post on this forum so hello.

I've been experimenting making digital negatives using an Epson R800 printer. I've been using Permajet OHP Transfer Film, which as I understand is essentially the same as Pictorio and printing onto Ilford Multigrade IV FB Glossy finished paper. I've been making the digital negatives using the Epson printer driver and making a correction curve to apply in Photoshop: I haven't managed to get my head around the process using QuadToneRIP.

I've been really impressed with the quality of the images I get, except for one detail - pizza wheel marks. From a normal viewing distance I can ascertain that there are some marks, which appear as slight banding, which is especially visible in lighter areas such as sky. When I look at the print under a magnifying glass I can see that the banding is actually pizza wheel marks all over the print. Also, I get a few other marks, which seem to be due to scratches on the OHP medium, caused again by the printer.

I did some searching on this forum before posting and found one post from 2006 describing a similar problem. I suspect that the solution my lie in a newer printer.

I'd be interested to hear from anyone using an Epson R2880. Do you get pizza wheel marks? If not the 2880, what is the best A3 size printer for making digital negatives?

Many thanks for reading my post.

I use both an R800 and an R1800 for digital negatives. On Pictorico, Arista (Freestyle) and Inkpress OHP, I get *no* pizza wheel marks. I do get them with other films like Photo Warehouse and Canon Transparent Clear Film because the ink dries more slowly and is still wet when the film passes under the wheels. The pizza wheels are extremely simple to remove. I had very bad feed problems after removing them from the R800, but it only took a minute to reinstall them. Bottom line: if you like the negatives you get, just stick to the OHPs mentioned above and your problem should be solved.

padgreen · Mar 30, 2009

Hi, thanks for the reply. I should have added I live in the UK and, as far as I'm aware, Pictorico and the other makes you mention are not available in the UK. At least I haven't found a stockist. If anyone knows of one, I'd like to know.

I read on a forum somewhere that the Permajet I use was rebranded Pictorico but maybe that's not correct either.

I'm not keen on the idea of removing the pizza wheels. I also use the printer for printing colour.

PVia · Mar 30, 2009

Is there an option for the R800 to control drying time between passes?

There is for the 3800...

pschwart · Mar 30, 2009

PVia said:
Is there an option for the R800 to control drying time between passes?

There is for the 3800...

No, there isn't.

pschwart · Mar 30, 2009

padgreen said:
Hi, thanks for the reply. I should have added I live in the UK and, as far as I'm aware, Pictorico and the other makes you mention are not available in the UK. At least I haven't found a stockist. If anyone knows of one, I'd like to know.

I read on a forum somewhere that the Permajet I use was rebranded Pictorico but maybe that's not correct either.

I'm not keen on the idea of removing the pizza wheels. I also use the printer for printing colour.

I can't comment on Permajet, but I know those other products work fine, so either it's not the same, or there is variability in the printers. I'll bet you could purchase Arista from freestylephoto.biz or Inkpress from bhphotovideo.com in the US. These are cheaper than Pictorico and I use the same correction curve for them. Still cheaper than investing in a new printer,
and the R800/R1800 do make very smooth negatives.

padgreen · Mar 31, 2009

Thanks for the replies.

I posted a question on the Permajet website last night and they telephoned me this morning - I must say I was very impressed with the Customer Service. They told me that the Permajet OHP Transfer film is not the same as Pictorico. Further, is seems the problem is specifc to the R800 as they are not aware of any problems with other printers. Unfotunately, the R800 lacks some of the features of modern printers which could help avoid this problem. The main option with the R800 seems to be try is to remove the pizza wheels, which as I said I'm not that keen to do.

I may have to order some alternative OHP material from the States but before I do that, and there is no guarantee that will work either, I think I need to learn how to use QuadToneRip for making digital negatives. As I understand it QuadToneRip will allow me to control how much ink is put on the medium - I'm thinking that if less ink is deposited maybe the less ink will dry quicker and so the pizza marks might be less of a problem?

pschwart · Mar 31, 2009

padgreen said:
Thanks for the replies.

I posted a question on the Permajet website last night and they telephoned me this morning - I must say I was very impressed with the Customer Service. They told me that the Permajet OHP Transfer film is not the same as Pictorico. Further, is seems the problem is specifc to the R800 as they are not aware of any problems with other printers. Unfotunately, the R800 lacks some of the features of modern printers which could help avoid this problem. The main option with the R800 seems to be try is to remove the pizza wheels, which as I said I'm not that keen to do.

I may have to order some alternative OHP material from the States but before I do that, and there is no guarantee that will work either, I think I need to learn how to use QuadToneRip for making digital negatives. As I understand it QuadToneRip will allow me to control how much ink is put on the medium - I'm thinking that if less ink is deposited maybe the less ink will dry quicker and so the pizza marks might be less of a problem?

Folks use QTR because they want to increase the amount of ink over what can be achieved with the Epson driver. While QTR will let you decrease negative density, you won't have a useable negative. If you can see pizza wheel marks in the shadow portions of your negatives then this won't solve the problem anyway. Try using the driver selection Printer and Option Information -> Thick paper and envelopes. This may help a bit.

nze · Mar 31, 2009

I calibrate a R800 at a workshop for palladium print and Agfa copyjet. I use the HSB array method and use the following color. Hue 125 saturation 100 brightness 40. I can send you the curve if you want. I use it with premium glossy paper setting. and we have no pizza wheel.

PVia · Mar 31, 2009

Have you tried matte black ink on the OHP?

I use this quite successfully and have all the UV blocking density I need...

padgreen · Mar 31, 2009

pschwart said:
Folks use QTR because they want to increase the amount of ink over what can be achieved with the Epson driver. While QTR will let you decrease negative density, you won't have a useable negative. If you can see pizza wheel marks in the shadow portions of your negatives then this won't solve the problem anyway. Try using the driver selection Printer and Option Information -> Thick paper and envelopes. This may help a bit.

Hi, thanks for the tip. I didn't know that there was a Thick Paper option in the driver extension settings, so I'll give this a try.

The reason I thought that using QTR to reduce the amount of ink deposited might help was because there is an information sheet available from the Permajet website that gives driver settings for using the OHP medium on an Epson R2400. That suggests using the Advanced B&W Photo settings to reduce the Maximum Optical Density to -20. Apart from that, the settings recommended are the same as I've been using ie Selecting Premium Glossy Photo Paper and printing at the highest Photo RPM resolution

padgreen · Mar 31, 2009

nze said:
I calibrate a R800 at a workshop for palladium print and Agfa copyjet. I use the HSB array method and use the following color. Hue 125 saturation 100 brightness 40. I can send you the curve if you want. I use it with premium glossy paper setting. and we have no pizza wheel.

Hi, thanks for the offer.

Can you recommend a link to describe the HSB method as I don't know what that is. I new to trying digital negatives and what I've tried so far has been based on what I've read in Ron Reeder's book, Digital Negatives, and from his website.

I've done a quick check and Agfa Copyjet is available in the UK, although only in boxes of 100 sheets. So that may be an option to try, if I can't resolve the pizza wheel problem by using the Thick Media setting described by pschwart.

Thanks again.

padgreen · Mar 31, 2009

PVia said:
Have you tried matte black ink on the OHP?

I use this quite successfully and have all the UV blocking density I need...

Hi, thanks for your reply.

I've haven't tried using the matte black ink. I assume to do this I would need to select Matte paper and not premium glossy?

Ron-san · Mar 31, 2009

padgreen said:
Hi, thanks for your reply.

I've haven't tried using the matte black ink. I assume to do this I would need to select Matte paper and not premium glossy?

If you are using the Ultrachrome K3 inkset you definitely want to try using the matte black ink. In this inkset Matte black is much more UV absorbant than Photo black. Thus, you will be able to get denser, more contrasty negatives (like you need for palladium or platinum printing) with less ink on the transparency material.
And yes, if you are using the Epson driver, the only way to make the printer use matte black ink is to choose a matte surface paper. Any matte paper will do, but stick to the same paper once you have chosen one so that your results will be reproducible.

Cheers, Ron Reeder

padgreen · Mar 31, 2009

Ron-san said:
If you are using the Ultrachrome K3 inkset you definitely want to try using the matte black ink. In this inkset Matte black is much more UV absorbant than Photo black. Thus, you will be able to get denser, more contrasty negatives (like you need for palladium or platinum printing) with less ink on the transparency material.
And yes, if you are using the Epson driver, the only way to make the printer use matte black ink is to choose a matte surface paper. Any matte paper will do, but stick to the same paper once you have chosen one so that your results will be reproducible.

Cheers, Ron Reeder

Hi Ron. Thanks for taking the trouble to reply, I really enjoyed the book by the way.

According to Epson, the R800 uses an Ultrachrome High Gloss Inkset. I assume this is an earlier version of the Ultrachrome K3 inkset. I will try using the Matt Black ink.

Thanks again. Cheers

pschwart · Mar 31, 2009

Ron-san said:
If you are using the Ultrachrome K3 inkset you definitely want to try using the matte black ink. In this inkset Matte black is much more UV absorbant than Photo black. Thus, you will be able to get denser, more contrasty negatives (like you need for palladium or platinum printing) with less ink on the transparency material.
And yes, if you are using the Epson driver, the only way to make the printer use matte black ink is to choose a matte surface paper. Any matte paper will do, but stick to the same paper once you have chosen one so that your results will be reproducible.

Cheers, Ron Reeder

Absolutely true. Using the Epson driver, I have measured a density of about 1.65 using the premium glossy photo paper media setting, but the velvet fine art dMax is over 2.6. If you do continue to use the photo black, make sure you uncheck the gloss setting in the driver -- this will turn off the gloss optimization ink channel.

jag2x · Mar 31, 2009

I too have the R800, and yes i'm plagued with the pizza wheels!
There are some solutions(though doesnt fix the problem):
1. Removing ALL the pizza wheels does not allow the paper to spit out smoothly once its finished at the end.
2.The best thing to do is remove ALL the wheels EXCEPT for the LAST 2 on either END. Though this still doesn't fix the problem as you need to guide the paper when it comes out on a flat surface so there is no bend when it spits out.

Or you need to leave a gap at the END of your printout, so you dont get the problem with the traction and bending of the paper.

pschwart · Mar 31, 2009

jag2x said:
I too have the R800, and yes i'm plagued with the pizza wheels!
There are some solutions(though doesnt fix the problem):
1. Removing ALL the pizza wheels does not allow the paper to spit out smoothly once its finished at the end.
2.The best thing to do is remove ALL the wheels EXCEPT for the LAST 2 on either END. Though this still doesn't fix the problem as you need to guide the paper when it comes out on a flat 90 degree surface so there is no bend when it spits out.

Or you need to leave a gap at the END of your printout, so you dont get the problem with the traction and bending of the paper.

Yes, removing the wheels screws up film feeding, but isn't a problem for paper. What kind of film are you using? The really simple solution is just to use a film that dries quickly enough to not show the markings. The pizza wheels are really Micky Mouse engineering to keep the small desktop printers inexpensive.

pschwart · Apr 1, 2009

pschwart said:
Yes, removing the wheels screws up film feeding, but isn't a problem for paper. What kind of film are you using? The really simple solution is just to use a film that dries quickly enough to not show the markings. The pizza wheels are really Micky Mouse engineering to keep the small desktop printers inexpensive.

It also occurs to me that you might find the matte black ink dries more quickly than the photo black, so selecting a media setting that uses matte black may actually eliminate the pizza wheels marks. Give this a try with the film you are currently using -- if this doesn't resolve the problem, then I think the next step is try a different film.

jag2x · Apr 2, 2009

I'm using Folex and Ulano film, both quite sticky and takes a while for the ink to dry.

padgreen · Apr 3, 2009

Hi,

Looks like I am going to have to try another OHP media. I've tried using the thick media setting in the R800 driver extension with my existing setup, ie printing using Photo black (Premium Glossy setting) and starting again using Matte Black.

In the case of the former, the pizza wheel marks are still clearly visible. With matte black ink, there are two problems firstly not enough ink is laid down for a continious tone, there is banding visible and pizza wheel marks are also visible.

Thanks again to all those that replied with suggestions. I'm going to try and get a sample of Agfa Copyjet to try.

Digital Negatives with Epson R800: pizza wheel marks

Privacy & Transparency

Privacy & Transparency