different developing tanks, and specifically, fixing in them

[Andrew Laverghetta]

Hi!

I've recently started using medium format after using 35mm for a while and developing myself in my apartment and printing at my school's darkroom for my class assignments.

For 35mm I've used Kalt(I think) metal tanks with the black plastic light trapping top.

For 120 I use a Paterson Tank System4. The big black plastic tank that will hold 3 medium format plastic reels. It has the little plastic rod that lets you rotate the reels.

Now, when I used the smaller tank, I could easily invert the tank but I figured I would spin the plastic rod to do my agitation the the Paterson tank.

It has seemed to work pretty good and I've gotten even development but for some reason, my fixing hasn't been as consistant. My fix is fresh and it's not rapid fix so it says 5-10 minutes and I usually have to fix for the whole 10 minutes plus maybe 2 or 3 in addition. Am I agitating too much? One book said to agitate the fix for at least half the time while another said to agitate similar to the developer or something like for 15 seconds each half minute. Normally I'll just kind of walk around my apartment while agitating so the 12 or 13 minutes aren't so boring.

Could the fix not be sitting in one place long enough to really work?

Thanks!!

 

[Marco Gilardetti]

If you ask me, unless you really stretch it up to - say - one hour, a long fixing time has no bad effect so it's always better to be generous. As a thumb rule, I usually double suggested fixing times.

But why you don't use a rapid fixer to process contemporary films is a mistery to me...

 

[Andrew Laverghetta]

I use the longer fixer because I feel it helps the grain seem more alive and let the alpha patterns match with the mood my brain waves are sending out during the development...

no??

ok, actually just because it's the only kind of fixer available where I've been getting my stuff...at least at the moment of purchase. I'll probably work at getting some rapid fix.

I just finished a roll of 35mm with continuous agitation for 14 minutes in the fix and the actual image looks good while the un-exposed areas of the film are very very very pale blue and almost clear. This is how it should be, correct? I also use Kodak hypoclear.

As for my agitation in the larger paterson tank, is there anything else that I should do or does agitating with that plastic rod going down the center (similar to an upright washing machine) seem to be the standard?

Thanks agian!

Hey marco, hope you had a good winter! (given your location...I need to get to Italy sometime)

 

[Dan Henderson]

14 minutes seems like a horrendously long time to me. I use Ilford Hypam and fix for 4 minutes, with no problems. An instructor taught me to fix my prints in film strength fixer for 1 minute rather than in weaker fix for 2 or 3. He claims that too long in the fix begins to bleach the image. I'm no chemist, but this makes some sense to me, and it seems the idea would carry over to overfixing film.

 

[Marco Gilardetti]

FirePhoto, hypam is a rapid fixer. The above times are for non-rapid fixers.

The "fixers bleaching the image" thing is a matter of the past and even then mostly based on misconceptions regarding Print-Out Paper materials. The effect is negligible. Try to leave a film sitting in the fix for hours and tell me if you see any difference.

Hey marco, hope you had a good winter! (given your location...I need to get to Italy sometime)

You bet I had!!!
Too bad everything's over, now. Back to mud. SIGH.

 

[Neal]

Dear Andrew,

I'm not sure what you mean by "...my fixing hasn't been as consistant.". If your film isn't clearing in the first 5 minutes it could be a big problem. (Yes, yes, I admit it. I have some poorly fixed film in my past.<g>) I would try pouring out about a third of the fixer (and pouring it back in) a couple of times during the process.

I hope you solve this quickly.

Neal Wydra

 

[Monophoto]

Andrew -

You can't overagitate in the fix - continuous agitation is fine. But you can overfix.

I was never satisfied with agitation by twirling. Frankly, however, if you are having problems with uneven fixing, you may also be having problems witih uneven development that is masked by the uneven fixing.

Ultimately, the best answer might be a different tank and reel. But a temporary workaround might be to change to a different form of agitation during the fix cycle. Once the film has been in the fixer for 30 sec or so, you can turn on the lights. Is it possible with the tank you are using to open the lid, and then agitate by lifting the reel out of the tank and then dropping it back in?

 

[Gerald Koch]

Long fixing times with rapid fix (ammonium thiosulfate based) can cause bleaching of the film. This is especially true with fine grain films. The problem may not be readily noticeable but fine detail can be lost. Extended times do no good and have the potential to do harm. Stick to times close to what the manufacturer recommends both for the film and the fix.

 

[fschifano]

Yeah, I know that fixing films, and especially the Delta and TMax films, can be a real chore with the standard sodium thiosulfate fixers. I've been spoiled by the quick action of rapid fixers and lately I've taken to using Kodak Flexicolor fixer for the C-41 process. Now that stuff is fast! Twice the clearing time is never more than 4 minutes. It is incredibly inexpensive as well. If you can get some locally, you might want to try it. You can even use it at half strength, if you feel it's too strong, without problems. It is so cheap that you won't be tempted to sqeeze every last possible roll through it. Just follow the 2x clearing time rule and you'll be fine. But that doesn't answer your question.

If you are getting even development using the twirling stick then I'd say you're onto a good thing. Agitating a tank that large by inversion has got to be a pain in the butt. There are a couple of reasons why fixing can proceed more slowly than you expect. The fixer could be weak. Obviously you know that and you've metioned that your fixer is fresh, so we can rule that out as a possibility. Insufficient agitation can also be a reason. It's impossible to agitate too much in the fixing bath. Using the same agitation schedule as you would for development is a good idea. Finally, fixation proceeds much more slowly at cooler temperatures. It's a good idea to keep all your chemistry, including the wash water, at about the same temperature. Of course, most critical is development temperature. The rest can be off by a few degrees without causing any problems.

 

[Andrew Laverghetta]

Yeah, the development is pretty even and as long as I leave my film agitating in the fix for about 4 minutes over the max, it usually works fine.

Here's a bonehead moment for me though...I use kodak's indicator stop bath as a stop and I've noticed that it's pretty much impossible to get the last dribbles of stop bath out so my fix has gotten a VERY VERY SLIGHT tint towards the yellow end but it's just enough that you can pick it from clear water when compared. This could have something to do with it?

I may be in order to get new reels for the tank though, if it's possible to get the plastic ones seperatly. It's incredibly hard to get MF film on those twist load ones and I suspect that they're not working well or grabbing the film very well because they're older and not as sturdy due to time.

We pay for the chemistry for our class and there is a huge box of concentrate sprint rapid fixer so I might have to drop by and load up on some of that since there doesn't really seem to be anything special about using one or the other for the film that I'm using, right?

 

[Gerald Koch]

The small amount of indicator is not going to effect the action of the fixer nor will the small carryover of water in the stopbath harm the fixer.

 

[dancqu]

Hi! My fix is fresh and it's not rapid fix so it
says 5-10 minutes and I usually have to fix
for the whole 10 minutes ...

The whole 10 minutes is not unusual and that for
Rapid fixers. T or D films, films containing silver iodide,
are Slow to fix in Rapid fixers. The reason being ammonia's
lack of effectiveness when iodide is present. Very nearly
as well off with the sodium version where
T and D films are to be fixed.

For a quick fresh fix mix your own at time of use. Dissolve
20 grams of the anhydrous or 30 of the penta in whatever
solution volume needed to cover. That's per roll. Those
are one-size-fits-all films amounts. Exceptions may
be the very highest speed T and D films.

The penta will chill the water while the anhydrous will not.
You'll know what form you've got. Use a water stop. Dan

 

[fschifano]

Yeah, the development is pretty even and as long as I leave my film agitating in the fix for about 4 minutes over the max, it usually works fine.

Here's a bonehead moment for me though...I use kodak's indicator stop bath as a stop and I've noticed that it's pretty much impossible to get the last dribbles of stop bath out so my fix has gotten a VERY VERY SLIGHT tint towards the yellow end but it's just enough that you can pick it from clear water when compared. This could have something to do with it?

I may be in order to get new reels for the tank though, if it's possible to get the plastic ones seperatly. It's incredibly hard to get MF film on those twist load ones and I suspect that they're not working well or grabbing the film very well because they're older and not as sturdy due to time.

We pay for the chemistry for our class and there is a huge box of concentrate sprint rapid fixer so I might have to drop by and load up on some of that since there doesn't really seem to be anything special about using one or the other for the film that I'm using, right?

Don't worry about the few drops of stop bath being carried over into the fixer. It's insignificant. If you don't want the fixer picking a yellow tint, simply give the film a water rinse after the stop bath. The little bit of extra water won't do any harm to the fixer either.

Could it be that the reels are not bone dry? Plastic reels are notoriously difficult to load if they get even the slightest bit damp. It's bad with 35mm film and worse with 120. If the reels are really orn out, you can get replacements. B&H, and I'm sure other retailers, offer the "Samigon Multi-Format Autofeed Reel." It will fit your Paterson System 4 tank according to the advertising blurb, and is less expensive than the equivalent Paterson reel. These reels have wide flanges and are pretty easy to load. They still need to be bone dry. Use a hair dryer on them before loading to make sure.

No doubt that rapid fixer will work faster than the sodium variety. TMax and Delta films take approximately twice as long to fix out compared to their older technology cousins and that's regardless of fixer type. If you can get your hands on some rapid fixer, do it.

 

[dancqu]

[QUOTES=fschifano]
"Don't worry about the few drops of stop
bath being carried over into the fixer."

For that matter don't worry about developer
being carried over. My previous post this thread
mentioned a water stop with use of one-shot fixer.
But even that is unnecessary. Posts read from other
one-shot fix users indicate many do not use a stop
of any sort. I do dump all the developer prior to
pouring in the fixer.

"TMax and Delta films take approximately twice
as long to fix out compared to their older technology
cousins and that's regardless of fixer type."

From all readings of the subject that is true of the
ammonium type. I'm quite sure that is not the case
with the sodium type. I've not tested the T or D films.
Silver iodide is so extremely insoluble that ammonia has
no effect upon it. So it falls to the thiosulfate to do all
the complexing of the silver iodide.

Buy sodium thiosulfate anhydrous. Calibrate some
spoons for weight. When fixer is needed spoon up 20
grams per roll for a fresh one-shot fix. Dry, bottled
S. Thio. will last for many years. Zero fumes.
No odor. Archival results. Dan