Differences between Mamiya Six (folder) and Agfa Isolette Super

[Donald Qualls]

Masks in a Mamiya 6 folder can't be "missing" -- they're captive, hinged on the film guide rollers at each end of the gate. This is another advantage of the 6 over other dual format folders.

 

[Ariston]

I MUST be thinking about a different camera...

 

[fs999]

A Super Isolette with frame window is a very bad sign. Either it is not a Super Isolette or the advance mechasism is broken.

That is what I said : Super Isolette don't have a frame window...

 

[LittleParallelograms]

I've found a fully working (tested) Iskra PM7640 for 70 euros in total, should I wait for a mint Mamiya six to pop up or just go for the Iskra?

¿Por qué no los dos?

They are both great. The Mamiya is more reliable, better built, as one would imagine, but the Iskra has a certain something, with a lens that is sharp wide open (in the center at least). However, I would not use an Iskra without an external finder, in my case a Voigtländer Kontur. The framing will not be very accurate within about 2 meters. Something to keep in mind.

 

[Oldwino]

The Mamiyas have the really cool film-plane focusing, and the pressure plate keeps the film very flat. It is the sharpest folder I have used. The “Automat” versions automatically cocks the shutter when you advance the film. It works great, until it doesn’t, and the mechanism is so complex most repair people won’t touch it. I had a IV-b, until the Seikosha shutter blew up...
The Isolettes (I have a III) are also great cameras, especially with the Solinar lens. More compact than the Mamiya six. But, they had cheap bellows in them, that will need to be replaced, plus the lube they used on the focus helicoil has all dried out and become more like glue. So, if you can find one that is already CLAd (new lube, new bellows), go for that. It’s one of my favorite hiking cameras - it can literally fit in your back pocket.

 

[Donald Qualls]

IMO, the better comparison would be between the Mamiya 6 or Super Isolette (or Super Speedex, the Ansco version) and a Super Ikonta B. My Mamiya 6 (Sekor C 75mm f/3.5) is sharper, lighter, and slightly smaller than my 532/16 (80mm f/2.9 Tessar), but my Mamiya 6 doesn't have a frame counter (later ones do) -- it's red windows all the way. Then again, the Mamiya 6 is dual format, 12-on or 16-on, while the 532/16 originally could only put 11 on a roll (I filed another notch in the cam and with careful film starting, it'll do 12 now).

 

[AlexiaMane]

I totally missed all of these replies! I didn't end up going for the Iskra because the price went up, so I'd have to pay at least 150 euro and for that price, I'd rather buy a Mamiya...

 

[Donald Qualls]

I totally missed all of these replies! I didn't end up going for the Iskra because the price went up, so I'd have to pay at least 150 euro and for that price, I'd rather buy a Mamiya...

I completely agree -- you should be able to get one of the Mamiya 6 examples with frame counter, fully working, from Japan for about that money plus shipping -- and it'll be a much more reliable camera than an Iskra (and easier to get repaired if it does break down). I have the Sekor lens on mine, but I wouldn't expect the Zuiko to be any worse; the one Zuiko I own (on a Pen EES-2) is plenty sharp.

 

[AlexiaMane]

The Mamiyas have the really cool film-plane focusing, and the pressure plate keeps the film very flat. It is the sharpest folder I have used. The “Automat” versions automatically cocks the shutter when you advance the film. It works great, until it doesn’t, and the mechanism is so complex most repair people won’t touch it. I had a IV-b, until the Seikosha shutter blew up...
The Isolettes (I have a III) are also great cameras, especially with the Solinar lens. More compact than the Mamiya six. But, they had cheap bellows in them, that will need to be replaced, plus the lube they used on the focus helicoil has all dried out and become more like glue. So, if you can find one that is already CLAd (new lube, new bellows), go for that. It’s one of my favorite hiking cameras - it can literally fit in your back pocket.

Yeah I thought so! That's why I wasn't sure if I wanted an Automat version. So which version would you recommend? I was thinking about the K II, the IV B or the IV S, is there a big difference between any of them?

 

[AlexiaMane]

I completely agree -- you should be able to get one of the Mamiya 6 examples with frame counter, fully working, from Japan for about that money plus shipping -- and it'll be a much more reliable camera than an Iskra (and easier to get repaired if it does break down). I have the Sekor lens on mine, but I wouldn't expect the Zuiko to be any worse; the one Zuiko I own (on a Pen EES-2) is plenty sharp.

Good that I didn't go with the Iskra then! Do you know anything about the S Kominar lens? It's very difficult to find a Mamiya without any sort of haze or fungus though!

 

[Donald Qualls]

Good that I didn't go with the Iskra then! Do you know anything about the S Kominar lens? It's very difficult to find a Mamiya without any sort of haze or fungus though!

Sorry, I know nothing about the Kominar -- I seem to recall seeing that name in the listings, but all the ones I looked at were either Zuiko or Sekor. Hard to picture Mamiya, even back in the 1950s, buying inferior lenses to put on what was then their flagship camera model -- but I just have no information on that lens.

My Mamiya 6 has a very clean lens, single-coated (I think) -- in fact, the whole camera is so clean I'm tempted to think it either spent fifty years in a climate controlled storage, or (much more likely, given the shutter is reasonably accurate on all speeds) was cleaned and gone through by the seller before I got it. Last time I looked, there were a lot of these being sold from Japan, and my experience with Japanese sellers has generally been very good.

 

[AlexiaMane]

Sorry, I know nothing about the Kominar -- I seem to recall seeing that name in the listings, but all the ones I looked at were either Zuiko or Sekor. Hard to picture Mamiya, even back in the 1950s, buying inferior lenses to put on what was then their flagship camera model -- but I just have no information on that lens.

My Mamiya 6 has a very clean lens, single-coated (I think) -- in fact, the whole camera is so clean I'm tempted to think it either spent fifty years in a climate controlled storage, or (much more likely, given the shutter is reasonably accurate on all speeds) was cleaned and gone through by the seller before I got it. Last time I looked, there were a lot of these being sold from Japan, and my experience with Japanese sellers has generally been very good.

Hmmm I understand! So it might be best not to go with a model with a Kominar lens. And seems like you were pretty lucky with your version! I will definitely go with a Japanese seller since there are almost none being sold in Europe! Do you know if it's possible to get haze or fungus cleaned? This probably depends on where it's located and the severity of it?

 

[Donald Qualls]

Cleaning haze from a lens is "just" a matter of disassembling the elements from the shutter and cleaning the glass/air surfaces of each group, then reassembling (in exactly the same position they were originally, including shim spacers and in some cases rotational position).

I got mine from 2015jpsames, who was very polite, and seemed to genuinely care about the Mamiya 6 in particular. This also seems typical of the Japanese sellers I've dealt with -- and fits with what I understand about Japanese culture in general. I just scanned the first page of the eBay store I linked, and he has several Zuiko lens Mamiya 6 examples and at least one Sekor lens version -- and I didn't even scroll to the bottom of the first page. He also has had a metal lens hood (cosmetically not too great, but it should do its job) and has offered leather everready cases from time to time (almost bought one just now, but $16 plus $35 shipping, best to combine with another purchase).

 

[Alex Varas]

Hmmm I understand! So it might be best not to go with a model with a Kominar lens. And seems like you were pretty lucky with your version! I will definitely go with a Japanese seller since there are almost none being sold in Europe! Do you know if it's possible to get haze or fungus cleaned? This probably depends on where it's located and the severity of it?

Just for curiosity I ran a search here and I found one with Kominar in Siberia, it seems fine, I wrote the seller about the state of the camera.

 

[moto-uno]

That should rule out high temp humidity for fungus growth . Peter

 

[Ariston]

Masks in a Mamiya 6 folder can't be "missing" -- they're captive, hinged on the film guide rollers at each end of the gate. This is another advantage of the 6 over other dual format folders.

I know what I was thinking - the plate that holds the film flat is removable.

OP, be sure it has that plate if you buy one.

 

[Donald Qualls]

I know what I was thinking - the plate that holds the film flat is removable.

OP, be sure it has that plate if you buy one.

Yes, indeed, else you'll be shopping for a parts camera and looking at the photos carefully -- because there are also at least two different pressure plate inserts for Mamiya 6 folders -- single hole and double (likely a third, with no hole, for the last model that auto-starts the counter).

 

[AlexiaMane]

Would you guys buy a camera that states "There is no fungus. There are some thin fungus cleaning marks on the rear lens." in the description? I don't know exactly what they mean by fungus cleaning marks?

 

[Donald Qualls]

Would you guys buy a camera that states "There is no fungus. There are some thin fungus cleaning marks on the rear lens." in the description? I don't know exactly what they mean by fungus cleaning marks?

Probably not. It's got both spores and cleaning damage.

 

[grat]

I have a mamiya lens that had, apparently, heavy fungus at one time. While strictly speaking, the fungus is dead (I made sure of that myself, even if someone before me hadn't), the fungus was well enough established that it either ate through the coating in some places, or actually etched the glass.

Either way, the lens is all but unusable in any kind of direct light.

 

[AlexiaMane]

Thanks everyone for the help! I finally bit the bullet on a Mamiya Six K-II. It wasn't the cheapest (the camera itself was 180 EUR / 230 USD) but it looked almost brand new and it came with a case + strap + filter. It only has the tiniest bit of haze in its viewfinder, but I plan to get a CLA done somewhere in the future anyway. I'd probably be able to get one for cheaper if I waited a bit longer but I sadly didn't have any more patience

 

[Wayne]

One other significant difference -- most Mamiya 6 versions (all but the Automat, AFAIK) had captive masks to allow shooting either 6x6 or 6x4.5. The ones with automatic counter (older versions use dual red windows with a lockout so you couldn't forget which format you were shooting in mid-roll) had a switch near the advance knob to set 12 or 16 frame count.

I don't think the red windows were limited to older versions...there are so many versions and variations on versions that its hard to keep everything straight, and I'm no expert on any of them. But I have a KII, which is a newer (post-1955) version, and it has the dual windows.

Also there are different kinds of levers on the back below the film advance knob. Some clearly show the 12 and 16 which must be the automat versions. Others just have a small thumb lever with maybe an arrow that is the film advance brake.

 

[Donald Qualls]

From what I've read, the Automat term referred to shutter cocking by the film advance. There were at least three versions (distinguished by viewfinder window shape and mount, to my eye on eBay, possibly other features as well) that had the mechanical frame counter with a single red window start, at least one of those would count either 12 or 16 frames. As you say, lots of variants, seemingly sold side by side ("For only another 2400 yen, you can be able to run through a whole roll without ever looking at the back of the camera -- just frame, focus, cock, fire, and advance!").