Difference between R09 and Rodinal

baachitraka · Aug 10, 2011

Just to educate my-self, is there any difference between R09 and Rodinal in terms of the quality of the negatives they produce?

I would like to experiment with stand-development for slow and medium speed films(PanF+ and Delta 100).

R gould · Aug 10, 2011

RO9 and Rodinal are identical, RO9 is Rodinal, made by Agfa, but sold to the Rollei brand holders by the bucketfull and packed by them, it is just that Agfa holds the name Rodinal and won't let any one else use it, I have used rodinal in all it's names and can see no difference, just use RO9 following the instructions for Rodinal and you won't go wrong.
Richard

Ian Grant · Aug 10, 2011

Not all RO9 is identical.

The Agfa no for Rodinal has been R09 for over a 100 years, after WWII Agfa Rodinal was reformulated around 1963/4 when Agfa merged with Gevaert, that Rodinal is still in production today but the name can't be used in the US or canada any longer as others own the trade name.

Orwo/Calbe continued making pre WWII formula R09 but not the Rodinal name, so not all R09 is the same.

Ian

baachitraka · Aug 10, 2011

May be I will go with ADOX ADONAL(nach Rodinal original Rezeptur).

Diapositivo · Aug 10, 2011

ADOX appear to make two versions of Rodinal:

The Adonal which is produced according to the 2004 recipe;
The APH09 which is produced according to the old Rodinal formula from before 1940.

Both are "original Rodinal recipes".

http://www.adox.de/english/ADOLUX/ADOLUX/ADONAL/ADONAL.html

Ian Grant · Aug 10, 2011

Diapositivo said:
ADOX appear to make two versions of Rodinal:

The Adonal which is produced according to the 2004 recipe;
The APH09 which is produced according to the old Rodinal formula from before 1940.

Both are "original Rodinal recipes".

http://www.adox.de/english/ADOLUX/ADOLUX/ADONAL/ADONAL.html

Fotoimpex don't make either version they buy them in and sell them under their Adox brand name, and luckily are very good at making it clear what you are buying.

The two versions are not quite the same in behaviour some German photographers prefer the older version which is why Fotoimpex/Adox sells both.

Ian

R gould · Aug 10, 2011

Diapositivo said:
ADOX appear to make two versions of Rodinal:

The Adonal which is produced according to the 2004 recipe;
The APH09 which is produced according to the old Rodinal formula from before 1940.

Both are "original Rodinal recipes".

http://www.adox.de/english/ADOLUX/ADOLUX/ADONAL/ADONAL.html

I have used both apho9, the original rodinal formula made by Calbe, and the adonal, which according to Fotoimpix is Agfa rodinal, made in the same factory and sold in bulk to whoever wants it and is willing to use their own trade name, RO9 from maco and adonal from adox are exactly the same formula as rodinal, just the name is changed, I still work from sheets printed in 1994, and they are exactly the same, the aph09 used to be different dilutions, 1/40 standard dilution rather than 1/50, and could be re used twice, I think, within an hour with an increase in developing time, but the starting times for APH09 1/40 were the same as rodinal 1/50, with the same results,. I understand that now APH09 has been re-formulated to make 1/50 the starting point and standard dilution. Both are firstclass developers, with APH being a little cheaper, but as far as results are concerned there is nothing to chose between either APH 09, RO9 from Maco/Rollei or adonal from Adox, I have used all 3 with great results, with perhaps APH09 being better for stand development.
Richard

baachitraka · Aug 10, 2011

Things are pretty clear for me now...

Ian Grant · Aug 10, 2011

A difference is the Calbe RO9 contains more p-Aminophenol and no excess Hydroxide while the later Agfa formula uses less p-Aminophenol at a higher pH and there is excess Hydroxide to give that pH increase which makes it more efficient. The Agfa Gevaert version was cheaper to make, I have published the figures in the past for the two versions.

Ian

baachitraka · Aug 10, 2011

Just curious, what are the effects of higher pH on the quality of negative?

brucemuir · Aug 10, 2011

Are "starting" times the same?

This crap drives me bonkers.

Michael W · Aug 10, 2011

In my experience the Adox Adonal is exactly the same as the recently available Rodinal. Foma R09 seems to be from the same factory but perhaps slightly more diluted. It is definitely not as strong as the Rodinal/Adonal. I notice on the bottle they suggest diluting it 1:40 whereas the Rodinal suggestion would be 1:50. If you can account for that difference then you should get comparable results.

georg16nik · Aug 11, 2011

I use mostly APH09, supposedly the old Rodinal formula from before 1940 and its perfect.
Its pH for 1:50, 1:100, according to my notes is in the range 13 ~ 14...
btw: the early version of APH09 had on the bottle 1:40, 1:80 as Michael mentioned. The last batches does not, if I remember correctly

piu58 · Aug 11, 2011

Some years ago, I checked old, 1940 formula R09 (standard dilution 1+40) against Agfa Rodinal on APX 100. Same film, some scene, same light. I saw a tiny difference in negative density, nothing else.

Trond · Aug 11, 2011

Michael W said:
In my experience the Adox Adonal is exactly the same as the recently available Rodinal. Foma R09 seems to be from the same factory but perhaps slightly more diluted. It is definitely not as strong as the Rodinal/Adonal. I notice on the bottle they suggest diluting it 1:40 whereas the Rodinal suggestion would be 1:50. If you can account for that difference then you should get comparable results.

To make things more confusing: There is an old and a new Foma R09. The old one is similar to the old Rodinal/R09 and diluted 1+40 and the new is the same as the most recent Agfa Rodinal product and diluted 1+50. I think they made the change one or two years ago.

Trond

Ian Grant · Aug 11, 2011

georg16nik said:
I use mostly APH09, supposedly the old Rodinal formula from before 1940 and its perfect.
Its pH for 1:50, 1:100, according to my notes is in the range 13 ~ 14...
btw: the early version of APH09 had on the bottle 1:40, 1:80 as Michael mentioned. The last batches does not, if I remember correctly

That pH is wrong, Calbe R09/APH09 has no free Hydroxide and when manufactured the concentrate is pH 11.8, that will reduce with dilution.

Agfa Rodinal, now called Blazinal, Adonal etc is pH 14 because of the excess Hyrdoxide.

Now the higher pH has no effects with most films, but a a few can suffer reticulation if you don't process carefully keeping temperatures close between all stages including washing.

The excess hydroxide will soften some emulsions sufficiently to allow temperature deviations to cause micro (surface) reticulation which accentuates grain in prints/scans, or full reticulation. At it's mildest this is one reason some thnk Rodinal isn;t a very fine grained developer.

Ian

WRSchmalfuss · Aug 11, 2011

ADOX Adonal
ROLLEI/Compard R09 One Shot
are based on the original AGFA formula.

Exclusively these two versions are identical with the latest version of AGFA at Vaihingen. Both showing in the fresh state a bright solution.

Both can be ordered from Freestyle L.A.; Firstcall UK, as well from the producers

www.fotoimpex.com Range: Adonal 500ml
www.macodirect.de Range: R09 One Shot 125, 250, 300, 500, 1,200 + 5,000ml

georg16nik · Aug 11, 2011

red cap APH09 and the blue cap APH09 got potassium hydroxide in it.
The .pdf from Adox site say so, as well http://www.adox.de/ADOX_APH_09(E).pdf
I have measured above mentioned pH levels many times with proper equipment.

Ian Grant · Aug 11, 2011

georg16nik said:
red cap APH09 and the blue cap APH09 got potassium hydroxide in it.
The .pdf from Adox site say so, as well http://www.adox.de/ADOX_APH_09(E).pdf
I have measured above mentioned pH levels many times with proper equipment.

All versions of Rodinal contain Hydroxide, right from its introduction however most of it reacts with the metabisulphite to form Sulphite, and the Calbe version has no excess Hyrdoxide.

Section 9 of the PDF you've linked to clearly states the pH of the APH09 concentrate is 11.8, unless you add more Hydroxide it can't go higher with dilution.

Ian

georg16nik · Aug 11, 2011

They give 2.0 - 5.0% for potassium hydroxide, so 11.8 is approximate.
Also, there is no way my water and Your water to be the same pH and mineral content.
This spring, the water in the pipes moved from 6 pH to 10 pH. I am usually distilling water but sometimes I just use filtered tap water when I don't wanna wait for a few hours for the distiller to round up..

G

Ian Grant · Aug 11, 2011

georg16nik said:
They give 2.0 - 5.0% for potassium hydroxide, so 11.8 is approximate.
Also, there is no way my water and Your water to be the same pH and mineral content.
This spring, the water in the pipes moved from 6 pH to 10 pH. I am usually distilling water but sometimes I just use filtered tap water when I don't wanna wait for a few hours for the distiller to round up..

G

The water's going to make no significant difference.

The pH 11.8 of Calbe RO9/APH09 is not approximate, the way older R09 is made is to balance the developer so that there is no free hydroxide, at that point there is a very slight precipitation of p-Aminophenol free base crystals which is normal for this developer. That's been the case for over 100 years and only the later Agfa Gevaert version of Rodinal now sold as Adonal etc changed this.

The difference in pH 11.8 of Calbe R09/APH09 and Rodinal/Adonal etc's pH 14 is large but is purely because the first relies on more developing agent at a lower pH with no free Hydroxide and the second on less developing agent and a sgnificantly higher pH due to an excess of Hydroxide.

Ian

Gerald C Koch · Aug 11, 2011

I have made various rodinal type developers. From my personal experience an excess of hydroxide shortens the shelf life of the developer.

georg16nik · Aug 11, 2011

Then, there might have been something with my bottle of APH09
I got suspicious and even checked my pH tester, checked mixed solution in a lab, with a very high end pH tester as well, within the 1 hour time frame of mixing the solution..
The only thing crossed my mind is, if I happen to have a batch of APH09 with early Adonal stuff poured inside.. hence the 13 ~ 14 pH.
I have had mismatched stuff with Adox before but it was with film.. CMS in a canister of Ortho

georg16nik · Aug 11, 2011

Gerald C Koch said:
I have made various rodinal type developers. From my personal experience an excess of hydroxide shortens the shelf life of the developer.

I have noticed darkening of the developer color towards dark brownish within 1 year or so. That is APH09 from one of the 1st batches.
Besides the change in color - it worked well till the end..

baachitraka · Aug 11, 2011

It seems pH of Adox APH 09 & Adox Adonal have identical pH = 11.8, if those data sheets are correct.

Difference between R09 and Rodinal

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