Difference between Moersch SE5 lith and Arista Premium Liquid A&B Lith developer

ymc226 · Mar 12, 2011

I am getting results I like with the Moersch product but it is getting costly. I want to try the part Omega but then I would have to use more concentrated lith developer (at least 1+10 or more). Using 5L in a 16x20 tray, that would mean $50 of lith developer at once.

Has anyone used the Freestyle product and how does it compare with the Moersch developer. How does formaldehyde in the Arista cause the process to change. Currently, I just use my fingers to transfer the 16x20 prints quickly from the developer tray to the stop bath as tongs would cause marks on the large paper. With formaldehyde, would I need to wear latex gloves? Are there any other considerations? Has anyone used a formaldehyde containing lith developer with the Moersch part Omega which is ammonium carbonate?

Mark Fisher · Mar 12, 2011

The arista product does cost less. It works, but I find it to produce somewhat more muted colors. I tend to use Moersch (or Rollei which is similar) simply for the lack of formalyhyde and I only use 1L+500ml old brown in a 11x14 tray. I do use Arista when I want a less colorful result. If you try Arista, I'd keep my hands out of the solution and make sure there is good ventilatation. Personally, I don't use any of the additional solutions that Moersch provides as I try to get the colors I want from toning.

2F/2F · Mar 12, 2011

Arista is all I use, mixed from powder, and I have seen lots of results from the use of the Clayton pre-mixed A+B chemicals by others in the alt processes classes I tutor. They work great. Don't know what to say about the other one. If the guy above is correct, perhaps try stronger solutions of the Arista or more time, or perhaps additives or toning to achieve more color. I am sure someone out there can crack, or has cracked, the solution for the Moersch, so that you can duplicate it either from scratch or with additives to the Arista. I find that the paper really makes the biggest difference, though. With the right papers (usually OLD), I get plenty of color from the Arista, and plenty of contrast if I expose and develop for it.

ymc226 · Mar 12, 2011

Mark Fisher said:
The arista product does cost less. It works, but I find it to produce somewhat more muted colors. I tend to use Moersch (or Rollei which is similar) simply for the lack of formalyhyde and I only use 1L+500ml old brown in a 11x14 tray. I do use Arista when I want a less colorful result. If you try Arista, I'd keep my hands out of the solution and make sure there is good ventilatation. Personally, I don't use any of the additional solutions that Moersch provides as I try to get the colors I want from toning.

Thanks Mark, I was concerned that formaldehyde was more toxic than most other formulations without it so I will stay away from the premixed liquid product.

ymc226 · Mar 12, 2011

2F/2F said:
Arista is all I use, mixed from powder, and I have seen lots of results from the use of the Clayton pre-mixed A+B chemicals by others in the alt processes classes I tutor. They work great. Don't know what to say about the other one. If the guy above is correct, perhaps try stronger solutions of the Arista or more time, or perhaps additives or toning to achieve more color. I am sure someone out there can crack, or has cracked, the solution for the Moersch, so that you can duplicate it either from scratch or with additives to the Arista. I find that the paper really makes the biggest difference, though. With the right papers (usually OLD), I get plenty of color from the Arista, and plenty of contrast if I expose and develop for it.

Thanks 2F/2F, I didn't even realize Freestyle had a powdered version of lith printing. It is much cheaper than the Moersch product. I will give it a try.

Thomas Bertilsson · Mar 12, 2011

I have never used the Moersch product. But I really like the Arista powder lith. Gives me the results I want, so I don't try to fix what isn't broken.

I mix 100ml Pt A to 1400ml water, and 100ml Pt B to 1400ml water. Mix them together and add 800ml old brown. That is a gallon and that sits pretty nicely in a 16x20 or 12x16 tray. That gives me the capacity of about 12 8x10 prints, which would be equivalent to 3 16x20.
I also season the developer by leaving the lights on with two pieces of 8x10 paper that are basically scrap paper that is old useless stuff.
Gives great colors. You can go down to 50ml concentrate of each for longer developing times, which usually helps release more intense colors.

PVia · Mar 13, 2011

You can experiment with hydroquinone, sodium sulfite, potassium carbonate and potassium bromide to make a homebrew lith developer. Look at some online formulas, try a few and adjust appropriately. Learn what the ingredients do, what happens to the solutions during development and you will soon be making your own. Yes, it takes time and it's not as convenient, but you will learn so much in the process.

2F/2F · Mar 13, 2011

FWIW, I always just "re-up" my old lith developer with 100 mL shots of A and B when it slows down too much. I don't bother mixing in a little old brown with water to make a new batch. I just use the old brown as my "water." I've had the same batch of 1.8 L going for about four years now, and it still works great, and predictably enough. I pour the 1.8 L into a tray, then add 100 mL of A and 100 mL of B when I start printing. When I am done, I refill the 1.75 L bottle, and if there is any extra (usually just a tiny bit over due to evaporation and carryover, I dump that. I get very warm results doing this.

ghostcount · Mar 13, 2011

2F, interesting work flow. How do you heat up your 1.75 L old brown?

2F/2F · Mar 13, 2011

I've never tried it warmed up.

Bob Carnie · Mar 13, 2011

The Moresh product IMHO is the best product for lith printing, If I could get the original mix of Nova lith AB( Mike Spry and Anton Corbjin mixture originally made in Mississauga Ontario) I would compare them equally.
For my darkroom nothing comes close to this product. I have tried the powders, I would rather have my teeth pulled out without gas one at a time than use the powdered versions.
:munch:

ymc226 · Mar 13, 2011

I had trouble getting part D (potassium bromide restrainer) as it was sold out from Freestyle and my one try at using "old brown" did not work out very well (not enough restraining effect). Most likely, I did not use enough old brown, having it comprise about a third of the total. Wolfgang has been very helpful. He recommended a 50% solution of potassium bromide which would be equivalent to his Part D which would then be diluted similarly. This has worked out very well.

Reading over prior threads regarding home brewed non-formaldehyde lith developers, comments typically reflect not achieving anything similar to commercial made products. With Bob's last opinion, I guess I will have to pay through the nose but as long as I get results that are pleasing to me, I can't complain much.

2F/2F · Mar 14, 2011

Bob Carnie said:
I would rather have my teeth pulled out without gas one at a time than use the powdered versions.
:munch:

It sounds like you may have lost perspective here.

Difference between Moersch SE5 lith and Arista Premium Liquid A&B Lith developer

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