Difference between Kodachrome KR & PKR?

I would like to hear from actual users of Kodachrome as to the difference between these two films, as they are priced quite a bit differently on the Freestyle website.

I am well versed in the differences between professional and consumer films, such as the Ektachromes and the various colour negative films available from Kodak. But what gives with good old Kodachrome? the pro version is 60% more expensive, so there must be something up with it.

I thought the difference was that only KR is made anymore, so in theory any PKR that they have would be NOS (New Old Stock) presumably stored in a big freezer

This has been discussed before with PE chiming in on the differences; here is a link you may want to check out:

(there was a url link here which no longer exists)

I'm not sure if there are any differences in contrast or reciprocity, but the difference that is most often cited is that the color balance is dead on with PKR when you buy it, whereas KR is designed to sit on the shelf. If you buy PKR and don't use it right away, it would be a good idea to refrigerate it. With KR I don't worry about that and have never had anything but spectacular results. The price they charge for PKR is so much higher that I can't imagine it's worth it, especially since I don't think it's a different emulsion at all.

Usually professional and amateur versions are different, e.g. Elite Chrome (amateur) and Ektachrome (professional).

Oh, and PKR may not be available in the anywhere else but it is still being sold in the US.

I might volunteer to do a test of two rolls. One of the reasons I go with KR over PKR is longevity on the road. I am always afraid of PKR being perhaps too ripe and if I am not using it right away, it could go magenta.

That being said, I have never really had an issue with KR looking too green either.

So in theory from reading the other thread, it might be like the chemicals I use in my industry (Cosmetics), in that you can get two grades, for instance regular and pharmaceutical.

They are both made in the same tanks in the same factory to the same recipie.
The difference in cost is the extra testing that gets done in the QC lab :rolleyes:

Excerpts from an exchange I recently had with a retailer via the Internet:

-----Original Message-----

Subject: Kodachrome 64 vs. Kodachrome 64 Professional

Hello,

I notice a $5 price difference between K64 and K64 Professional.

Is the difference simply matching emulsions and optimum aging before shipment, as with other identical emulsions that come in both pro and consumer varieties?

Is it possible to get any of your plain K64 with matching emulsions? I am going to need to purchase about 40 rolls, and possibly as many as 60.

Thanks for your time.





Subject: RE: Kodachrome 64 vs. Kodachrome 64 Professional

"Thank you for the E-mail. Our Distribution Center handles a large volume of orders daily. There is no way we can guarantee that any order will be shipped with product of the same emulsion numbers.

"We can request it on the order to pull product with the same emulsion number, but we can't guarantee it.

"All sensitized products have either emulsion or batch numbers.

"There is a difference between the pro film vs. the amateur film besides the price. The PKR is more archival (according to Kodak) and has a little more latitude.

"I checked stock on both films at or Distribution Center...and what I do know is that PKR Professional: we have 16 rolls in stock all with an expiration date of 6/20/09. KR Amateur: we have 37 rolls in stock all with an expiration date of 10/20/09. This suggests to me that what we have in stock for each type is of the same emulsion number."





Back to me writing:

Normally, the difference between pro and amateur films that share the same exact emulsion is the following:

1. Pro versions are allowed to age to optimum color balance before they are delivered for sale to the public. Amateur films are delivered right away with no regard to age, as it is assumed they will sit longer before being shot than pro films, and that they will be printed on an automated machine with little-to-no criticism of color balance by consumers, and no need for color to match exactly from one roll to another.

2. Pro versions are available in bulk packages with matching emulsion batches.

3. Pro versions are 36 exposures, while amateur versions come in 36, 24, and perhaps 12 exposure lengths.

Fuji Superia and Fuji Press is an example of all of the above. (The latter is the "pro" version.) Dead identical emulsions, but with added features that only a more advanced - and probably only a professional - photographer will need and/or appreciate. These things really matter as far as lab hours are concerned when you are shooting multiple rolls on the same shoot.

Then there are emulsions that *only* come in the professional varieties, such as Fuji Pro and Kodak Portra. They meet all the above criteria, but simply have no amateur equivalent, aside from a consumer purchasing a loose roll or two that have been sitting there for who knows how long at the cheesy camera store up the street , thus eliminating all the "pro" benefits even though it is a "pro" film.

...but according to Kodak's claims, of which I became aware via the above exchange, KR and PKR are not the same emulsion....strange, and frankly hard to fathom/believe, personally.

The difference will soon be irrelevant, but Kodak always stated that the Pro version was just aged under controlled conditions and released with a smaller time frame to achieve maximum quality. But the films were no different to start with, they were the same emulsion at manufacture.

Ian

My advice back in the early 90's was to buy the gray market version with European processing mailers that Kodalux USA honored, for a total film & processing price of under $8. Unfortunately, that ship sailed a long time ago! Nowadays, if you can find a retailer that has an air-conditioned store and there's some on the shelf that's not in the window with an expiration date yet 6-9 mos out, go for it and save yourself the big bucks over PKR. Kodachrome 64 for normal retail distribution was date stamped with an ~18 mo. expiration date. It was manufactured with a noticeable green bias when it first hit the shelf, that aged down through neutral bias to a red/magenta bias beyond it's expiration date, given storage at room temperature.

The only difference between ordinary KR64 emulsion batches and those intended for PKR distribution was that the PKR was refrigerated at it's peak/ ripe/ neutral color balance. No, it is NOT more archival. And, by the way, the film base is exactly the same. No other difference, none nada zip.

If PKR hasn't been refrigerated/ frozen it for the entire interval since the time it was manufactured (and what photo retailer yet does this? None but the largest and most reputable-- and they've blown through their stocks of PKR already, no doubt as it hasn't been marketed in quite some time), so any premium for PKR is nothing but smoke and mirrors-- unless it's pedigree is impeccable, as in delivered from the cold dead hands of Ernst Haas.

Given that nowadays additional concerns about vintage film like how many trips it's taken through the TSA line at the airport, are valid, nothwithstanding a clear chain of custody, there's really no advantage to buying vintage film unless a tremendous bargain or unobtainable otherwise. Kodachrome will not be unobtainable until shortly after the one processor in the world is defunct (hopefully, very shortly afterwards!). In considering all this, I absolutely would not use and can't recommend anyone else using Kodachrome today for any paying gig. Dwayne's could literally burn to the ground tomorrow and there I'd be, completely SOL with nowhere else to turn for K64 processing.

Pupfish said:

Dwayne's could literally burn to the ground tomorrow and there I'd be, completely SOL with nowhere else to turn for K64 processing.

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My latest inventory shows a tad over 950 rolls of Kodachrome in my freezer. What you have written makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside......not!

And while we are at it, lets remember that Dwayne's is in "Tornado Alley".

PKM-25 said:

My latest inventory shows a tad over 950 rolls of Kodachrome in my freezer. What you have written makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside......not!

And while we are at it, lets remember that Dwayne's is in "Tornado Alley".

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Your 950 rolls could be a great financial asset in these turbulent times. Unless more film is coated then how long after the last films expire 09/10 2009 will processing continue before it become too low volume & uneconomic and cease.

Ian

The thought had crossed my mind that some disaster could occur at Dwaynes (and that's not said selfishly, my first concern would be people in Tornado Alley, the film is secondary). I've nowhere near 950 rolls in the freezer, but was surprised, when I last checked, the number which was building up from regular purchases...and, of course, now relying on K64 as my main choice of slide film.

One would hope that Kodak would put in place some alternative if the worse happened, but it begs the question of whether alternative equipment and machinery is still in existance anywhere.

Ian Grant said:

Your 950 rolls could be a great financial asset in these turbulent times. Unless more film is coated then how long after the last films expire 09/10 2009 will processing continue before it become too low volume & uneconomic and cease.

Ian

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It's a thought.

I've a brick of K25 in the freezer, and E-baying the films is tempting.

But then I remember they were manufactured for photographers to use and enjoy, I bought them for that reason, and their cost to me remains at the original retail price which I paid. :confused:

I'll have to decide...but I think they'll could be used carefully on a "special" holiday next year.

Not to get OT, but I would think that if Dwayne's failed, Kodak would have a contingency plan, probably involving restarting the lab in Rochester. Keep in mind that this would probably be a Kodak-only operation, so Wal-Mart, Target, and other Fuji contracts would be out; only Qualex services or the old mailers would be available to process K-14. Of course, if that happens, the odds are that Kodachrome will be discontinued immediately, as the cost for repairing the Dwayne's machine could easily exceed potential profits (if there is such a word when referring to Kodachrome).

I think I will write a song about Fujichrome Provia (100F and the new and amazing 400X). To me, it looks better than Kodachrome for *most* things, and I can process it at home for CHEEP. I like K64 and K200, but just tested some K64 with a MacBeth chart and it is nowhere near usable for certain things that I want to do in the studio in the near future (like things with "accurate" color). I do hope they keep making it, though, and that Dwayne's doesn't burn down or get hit by a twister. I miss Kodachrome 200. It was the one I usually used.

2F/2F said:

I think I will write a song about Fujichrome Provia (100F and the new and amazing 400X). To me, it looks better than Kodachrome for *most* things, and I can process it at home for CHEEP. I like K64 and K200, but just tested some K64 with a MacBeth chart and it is nowhere near usable for certain things that I want to do in the studio in the near future (like things with "accurate" color). I do hope they keep making it, though, and that Dwayne's doesn't burn down or get hit by a twister. I miss Kodachrome 200. It was the one I usually used.

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If you are looking for the most *accurate* color, I would reccomend Kodak Ektachrome 100 Plus (EPP). It is the closest relative of the former Ektachrome 100, the standard for color accuracy. Kodachrome delivers a unique color palette, one that is more accurate than Velvia and the like, but not the most accurate of any slide film.

Ian Grant said:

Your 950 rolls could be a great financial asset in these turbulent times. Unless more film is coated then how long after the last films expire 09/10 2009 will processing continue before it become too low volume & uneconomic and cease.

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I don't see a problem in using 900+ rolls of Kodachrome in 1-2 years. So those 950 rolls *will* be a great financial asset for sure, but not by selling them on ebay.

My latest expiration dates are 12/2009 by the way...I'm sure later dates will follow.

By my count, B&H has sold nearly 300 rolls is less than 48 hours, Freestyle is out again and my site is getting a record number of hits.

Kodak has a K-lab in storage in case a disaster hits Dwayne's.

Professional Kodachrome wasn't "aged" to color balance, it was made dead-on. Different master roll. The last runs of PKR might just have been selected, as the current formulation of Kodachrome 64 has much less color shift as it ages, so they don't really make it "green". (The shift is due to oxidization of the sensitizing dye in the green-sensitive layer.)

Now, Kodachrome 200, the professional stuff was really worth buying. That film was much more subject to color shifting as it aged, so it was really worth buying the "dead on" Professional version.

John Shriver said:

Kodak has a K-lab in storage in case a disaster hits Dwayne's.

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Doesn't Rocky Mountain Film have a K-Lab and process Kodachrome as well? Seems to me I saw it on their price sheet at a really outrageous price. And I'm certain they are not "Kodak certified" for it, but I'm not sure that matters if the results are there. Frankly, if we could get the film processed by the elves in the Keebler Cookie Tree it would be OK so long as the results are there. (And the elves might work for free.)

michaelbsc said:

Doesn't Rocky Mountain Film have a K-Lab and process Kodachrome as well? Seems to me I saw it on their price sheet at a really outrageous price. And I'm certain they are not "Kodak certified" for it, but I'm not sure that matters if the results are there. Frankly, if we could get the film processed by the elves in the Keebler Cookie Tree it would be OK so long as the results are there. (And the elves might work for free.)

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As bag-in-box Kodachrome developer for the K-Lab has not been available for a few years (why Horiuchi shut down, AFAIK), I think that Rocky Mountain does it the "old-fashioned way" (or sends it to Dwaynes for $9.00 and pockets the $25.50 profit)

nickrapak said:

As bag-in-box Kodachrome developer for the K-Lab has not been available for a few years (why Horiuchi shut down, AFAIK), I think that Rocky Mountain does it the "old-fashioned way" (or sends it to Dwaynes for $9.00 and pockets the $25.50 profit)

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Well, if that's the case, just so that everyone knows, I'm starting a service to process Kodachrome myself, just like Rocky Mountain Photo. I'll guarantee my work is as good as theirs. In fact, I'll guarantee my work is as good as Dwaynes, since that's what I'm going to use to do mine.

So, everybody send your Kodachrome to me along with a check for $35 and we'll get this show on the road. Thanks for your support.

MB