Did the Lomo camera save film photography? (Hmmm, interesting theory. . . . )

Helinophoto said:

Getting them into the "fold" is the best way to teach and expand their minds a little.

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They need as much "mind expanding" as we on APUG would need. While the Lomo crowd in general doesn't know (or care) all that much about photo chemistry, MTF, characteristic curves, repeatability and the zone system, they are great when it comes to embracing randomness in artistic expression, creativity is rampant and we could learn a lot from them about using expressionist colors to communicate mood and emotion.

Only a small minority on each side is willing to accept the viewpoint of the other side, and I see little point in shoehorning both into one forum. Your posting is a prime example why these two worlds will stay apart for the time being.

I do agree that out of 100 Lomo-shooters, there will be _maybe_ 10 who will grow out of that phase (and they will) and may look to move on to "controllable creativity", because they may want to know why some effect happened and how they can repeat that exact effect. That's new blood to a shrinking community.
- I would say though, that 90% of the people here, did not start out by perfecting the zone system or with "one film, one dev, do not try anything else before you master that first", most folks here shot with what they had and the film they could get hold of in the beginning.

Also, you should consider the fact that the Lomo-shooters are a much younger generation (14-late 20's), off course they want to have _fun_ with it, nothing wrong with that.

APUG stands for Analog Photography User Group, I see nothing that would exclude anyone, based on the fact that they may be shooting with a crappy camera and expired film and really don't care much for the technical stuff.

I don't own any Lomo-stuff myself (was tempted to buy a Lubitel once but...) and I see myself as a pretty "standard" photographer concerning (traditional) photography, but I have absolutely nothing negative to say about the Lomographers. (but I may be in the younger group in here anyway, seeing I am "only" 38, i don't know ).

The part about my posting being a prime example why these two worlds will stay apart, I didn't quite understand.
I see you disagree with me and you have all the right to do so, but I think you are missing my point here.

Helinophoto we agree again . I do have a debonair lomo style camera I got fro m the "film photography project" and I'm curious what I can get out of it (the first roll I shot was borked due to bad developer) however I shoot mostly with traditional film cameras. To me the point of this is enjoying film. A lot of folks are having fun with lomo products and they should be welcomed to APUG where they can discuss lomography or explore other aspects of film. Lomography can be their chosen art for or a gateway drug depending on the individual.

Indeed, that's exactly what I am thinking as well. (in fact, there are a lot of Lomo-shooters who are developing their own black and white films, but most probably send them in for processing these days). But eventyually, as most people, some of them will naturally ask "why" and "how".

For those who would like to "know their enemy", here is a free documentary on vimeo about the beginnings, meaning and how it is today.
(It also features a cold-war era Putin ): http://youtu.be/8TiAsvYgyqU

Helinophoto said:

I do agree that out of 100 Lomo-shooters, there will be _maybe_ 10 who will grow out of that phase (and they will) and may look to move on to "controllable creativity", because they may want to know why some effect happened and how they can repeat that exact effect. That's new blood to a shrinking community.

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I guess the main point where we disagree is that you portrait Lomo shooters as immature kids who may or may not grow into "real analog photographers". A significant part of them may really be youngsters coming from the digital generation who suddenly got immersed in the magic that analog photography appears to be (to them at least), but that can't possibly carry a movement of that size for so many years. Their careless attitude towards technical details and their endorsement of randomness unleashes a tremendous outpour of creativity.

Helinophoto said:

I would say though, that 90% of the people here, did not start out by perfecting the zone system or with "one film, one dev, do not try anything else before you master that first", most folks here shot with what they had and the film they could get hold of in the beginning.

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The question is, and I think this is the biggest thing that separates the APUG crowd from Lomography, whether one considers lack of technical proficiency as a deficit and something to work on, or an opportunity and even an asset. This is precisely where the "hair dye" thread became ugly, and your quote "this crazy lady picking on our PE" highlights that. In Pickle's world, she unlocked a secret door in some magical garden, and she hoped we would rejoice about this. APUG replied by telling her the door was rusty and the key couldn't have possibly worked. From a lock smith's perspective that's absolutely valid, yet in the magical Lomo world APUG completely missed the point.

Helinophoto said:

APUG stands for Analog Photography User Group, I see nothing that would exclude anyone, based on the fact that they may be shooting with a crappy camera and expired film and really don't care much for the technical stuff.

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Nobody excludes them, and AFAIK Sean doesn't provide photographic aptitude tests for new APUG members. But let's not forget that Lomo is heavily marketed, and the company behind Lomo fosters a strong community. Luring these people towards APUG will take a lot of effort, and telling them they are immature tinkerers "who need to be taught and who need to expand their minds" is probably not going to work as intended.

Thanks for clarifying, I think I understand what you mean now and I actually agree with you to a large extent.

Just a few quotes/points:

Rudeofus said:

I guess the main point where we disagree is that you portrait Lomo shooters as immature kids who may or may not grow into "real analog photographers". A significant part of them may really be youngsters coming from the digital generation who suddenly got immersed in the magic that analog photography appears to be (to them at least), but that can't possibly carry a movement of that size for so many years. Their careless attitude towards technical details and their endorsement of randomness unleashes a tremendous outpour of creativity.

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A 16 year old today, has probably never seen a medium format film camera, let alone the negative, funny huh? =)
I agree fully that Lomo will probably not last forever, thus I agree partially with the thread-heading in saying "yes, for now", but this is a (imo) "craze" (in the lack of a better word), and it's hard to say how long it will last, until something else takes over.
My point is that, "while they are half trough the door already, show them what's inside", they can't get the "APUG-influence" in their own community.

Rudeofus said:

The question is, and I think this is the biggest thing that separates the APUG crowd from Lomography, whether one considers lack of technical proficiency as a deficit and something to work on, or an opportunity and even an asset. This is precisely where the "hair dye" thread became ugly, and your quote "this crazy lady picking on our PE" highlights that. In Pickle's world, she unlocked a secret door in some magical garden, and she hoped we would rejoice about this. APUG replied by telling her the door was rusty and the key couldn't have possibly worked. From a lock smith's perspective that's absolutely valid, yet in the magical Lomo world APUG completely missed the point.

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Yes, I see that one, good point.
But I would just call her downright rude and inexperienced and yes, maybe she needed a pat on the head, before dismantling her great discovery
Seen from the other end; She could have been proactive and googled a bit before announcing her big discovery.
The thread lacked a translator between her and well meaning PE, because the conversation was a bit like Sheldon explaining to Penny how physics work (the Big Bang Theory series) http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Um7SttlM8fI

Although PE is much much nicer than Sheldon, but there are similarities here =)

Rudeofus said:

Nobody excludes them, and AFAIK Sean doesn't provide photographic aptitude tests for new APUG members. But let's not forget that Lomo is heavily marketed, and the company behind Lomo fosters a strong community. Luring these people towards APUG will take a lot of effort, and telling them they are immature tinkerers "who need to be taught and who need to expand their minds" is probably not going to work as intended.

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I didn't mean it quite like that, certainly not telling anyone "Hey, listen up" ^^ It's no easy-peasy trying to influence that community, but one can certainly try. Flickr seem to have greater success merging the communities, as it is easier to create interest groups who are so generic that they naturally include both traditional as well as lomo-shooters.
Maybe flickr is the answer more than APUG, but I was also considering the recent message about the increased expenses APUG has running this site, so new subscribers should be most welcome I would believe.

My whole point was that by trying to place their community closer to ours, their naturally inquisitive nature may (and indeed may not) lead to a situation where some of them find that they can learn to find an even greater joy in "controlling" their creativity. This isn't something they try to do in the Lomo-community in general, but people are people and some of them will always want to learn more. (and APUG certainly is the world-class leader as a knowledge-base for all things analog, it's amazing)

Helinophoto said:

My whole point was that by trying to place their community closer to ours, their naturally inquisitive nature may (and indeed may not) lead to a situation where some of them find that they can learn to find an even greater joy in "controlling" their creativity. This isn't something they try to do in the Lomo-community in general, but people are people and some of them will always want to learn more. (and APUG certainly is the world-class leader as a knowledge-base for all things analog, it's amazing)

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One way to induce this would be providing them with something they want and need right now, like methods and recipes for lomographic work. In fact the only time anyone in my home town asked me about photo chemistry was a guy who runs an analog photography store, and he wanted to modify a C41 kit so that it creates off colors that simple scanning software could not easily correct. I felt like that unknown chemist to who showed Van Gogh the Chromium Yellow pigment ...

Helinophoto said:

I do agree that out of 100 Lomo-shooters, there will be _maybe_ 10 who will grow out of that phase (and they will) and may look to move on to "controllable creativity", because they may want to know why some effect happened and how they can repeat that exact effect. That's new blood to a shrinking community.
- I would say though, that 90% of the people here, did not start out by perfecting the zone system or with "one film, one dev, do not try anything else before you master that first", most folks here shot with what they had and the film they could get hold of in the beginning.

.

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Shooting with Holga and other Toy cameras (besides "normal" cameras) myself I know some other people doing that. Most of them started taking pictures on film because they wanted to be cool and show their own style. About 20% of them started asking questions because they wanted a better control of the process. I showed them some things and how to develop film at home. Some enlarge B+W at home now, colour goes hybrid most of the time.

To sum it up: Don't be shy, every help is needed to keep film alive. And it is just another way of taking pictures. The discussion about this reminds me sometimes of my youth when I heard "This is not real music, you should hear classic music!!!". I'm referring to what is called now "Classic" Rock

I fully agree, thanks for taking the time to put it this way.

I happen to love some of the Lomo work I see because it often contains something that is missing from the tired technically perfect Luddite attitude driven stuff that is not Lomo, raw talent in terms of framing and creativity.

I might just shoot a bit of it, join a Lomo forum, say how much I appreciate them and then invite them to set the record straight in the "Film Retirement Home" known as APUG...

Helinophoto said:

Anyone shooting film, be it large format, medium format, 35mm or more obscure formats, pinhole, lomo or whatever, are all equally important to the community, I believe some of the older shooters out there may have their own opinion on lomo-shooters, but they DO indeed contribute.

Just recently, I visited a lab in the middle of Oslo (they hang around in the main building to our largest national newspaper), and they have devoted a very large section of their store to lomo-stuff.
The guy behind the counter (where they also had a stacked freezer full of film) told me they process and sell loads of film these days, both to more traditional folks and also a large part to the lomo-crowd.

Lomo is just another way of expressing yourself creatively and I am glad they do it using analog media.

Now, if APUG had a proper Lomo-forum, not only would they have another group of potential subscribers, the Lomo-shooters are the most probable people to sniff around and start checking out the traditional photography craft.

By not including them properly, or really trying to reach out to them, we're hurting the community more than we help it IMO. (someone needs to take over when we all die )

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I'm brand new here, but I've been shooting film since I was a kid and still do... I love this article by the BBC about the idea that the "Lomo camera saved film." What rocks about the article the most to me is that it stirs more interest in film just by bringing attention to it. I shoot only film...no digital camera here except my iPhone. I'm going to buy a Holga because I want to have some fun with it. Right now I think that anything that draws attention to film, that gets more people excited about film, is good. I'm tired of people where I live talking to me like I'm some kind of dinosaur because I shoot film. If Lomography is a catalyst for a film renaissance, then yea Lomography!

I think the great thing about Lomos/Helgas etc is that you are never really sure what you're going to end up with. A good friend uses his to unwind and create "arty" images (compared to the usual commercial d*****l we produce); he picked up the camera for a steal whilst with me on assignment in Japan, taped every possible crevice with gaffer tape and we proceeded to wander around the back streets of Nagoya.

I was shooting B&W on a Kodak Junior 620, he shot colour and B&W also. The images he got were really good - some even showcase in his folio now.

It's not the (film) camera you use, it's how you use it and how much film it eats up!!