Did I Miss Something?

I read this, this morning, and was surprised to see that Kodak has stopped producing film (according to this story).

Dead Link Removed

Have I misunderstood?

Dan

They will stop making the acetate, use up their stocks and then buy it from suppliers following the same QC standards. They will still make the emulsions and coat the acetate and package the film.

That article about Chris Walker says that he got T-MAX 400 8x10" out of the last batch.
Considering that Kodak will not sell still film in the future (but a enigmatic follow-up company) and the fact that Walker has been a test photographer for Kodak, that is a interesting statement.

The truth of it will still have to be validated.

I thought 8x10 and larger was now special order rather than typical production. Maybe this was the end of the standard production run before it went special order only?

Special order? Oops, I missed that. Thought that would have started with ULF only. (Maybe my memory is failing...)


Anyway, the future of Kodak still films is enigmatic to me. Nobody seems to have heard anything from "New Kodak" (KPP in the UK) so far.


For the other entity sold by Kodak to KPP:

Dolores Kruchten from Kodak Document Imaging on the sale to KPP

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QoGV4kL6vnY

Nothing of that kind was heard from the still film department.

Bummer he chose to use an inaccurate and provocative headline to engage his potential donors:

"Rural Transitions: A Photographer shoots the last sheets of Kodak film ever made".

While it is a cool project, I feel like he threw the rest of the film using world under the proverbial web-hype bus in the name of ensuring his fiscal goals were met....and they were not.

Also, back in April, a rep from Kodak thanked Henry from B&H for "Setting the record straight" on a post on Facebook for KB Canham LF cameras:

"As far back as 2010 Kodak made this film available as a special order only with a minimum order of $15,000.00. I've asked our film buyer who confirmed it is indeed special order with a ten-week lead time. He also reported we expect to have some in stock before the end of the month."

B&H shows 139 10 sheet boxes of TMY and over 200 boxes of TMX in 8x10, FYI....

I keep saying this...

That so-called new Kodak marketing company (KPP, is that the new acronym??) needs to get off their duff and get moving. The more people who read the above—and similar—headlines, the deeper the hole they're digging themselves into. And everybody knows The First Rule of Holes, right?

By not speaking up in opposition they are passively confirming that misinformation simply by not actively refuting it in the marketplace. And these days crowd sourcing sites and blogs are part of the marketplace.

They did (or didn't do) exactly the same thing when they killed off Kodachrome. Good lord, I can't tell you how many people who knew about my interest in film contacted me to express their heartfelt sympathy for "the final death of Kodak film."

Where are these KPP guys???

Ken

Ken, I have notified the appropriate people, until we get feedback that gives insight to the new helmsmanship, we have to just assume that the current marketing folks are waiting for marching orders...

PKM-25 said:

...we have to just assume that the current marketing folks are waiting for marching orders...

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Seems to me that's the problem in a nutshell.

Ken

I expect that the actual sale hasn't yet completed, because of the time requirements of the bankruptcy process.

MattKing said:

I expect that the actual sale hasn't yet completed, because of the time requirements of the bankruptcy process.

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I realize that. But as I've stated earlier, markets—and market share—won't wait for lawyers. (Nothing personal.) I suspect Ferrania knows this too. Maybe that's why they announced now, knowing they won't really be ready until 2014.

"Bankruptcy" is not supposed to be a destination resort...

Ken

The combination of a US bankruptcy court and a UK pension regulator probably makes for about as slow an environment as any you might find.

I doubt that the pension fund is allowed (by its regulator) to spend any meaningful money until the sale is essentially complete.

And Kodak is probably prevented from spending much by the bankruptcy.

Understood. And I know you are correct, Matt.

However...

My dad was going to toss his old Minolta 35mm film camera. I told him I'd take it if he didn't want it. So I was doing a little surfing online, looking to see if I might still be able to buy some film and try it out. I found a link to a new company called Ferrania in Italy. Never heard of them before. But they are going to start making film real soon now.

I know from my dad that he used to use Kodak film. But I found a big-time photographer at 'indiegogo' who says he's now using up the last film from the last batch that Kodak ever made. And when I Googled on 'Kodak' I found out they are bankrupt and out of business.*

It must be true because I don't see anything online anywhere that I hang out about any Kodak film. My dad says that Kodak died a few years back when his old favorite film Kodachrome died. After that, he just put the Minolta back in its box and bought a digital camera.



Ken

* Remember, I'm just a kid reading this stuff.

Well it looks like he changed it and went on to clarify some things. In reading his more representative explanation of it, I can see how that might have been a tough point to set the hook with if he did not simplify it a bit. But he simplified it a LOT and distorted the facts in the name of that simplicity and impact.

As it stands right now, Keith at KB Canham says he can special order TMY 400 in 8x10. The idea anyone would get from his headline is that he has a stash of the last batch of TMY cut to 8x10 that Kodak is ever going to make and this is just not true. Even he states that whether or not they cut another batch of 8x10 is "a big unknown".

Regardless of if he has another chance to shoot TMY 400 in 8x10 next year or not, I still think he took liberties that were just not right. I wish him luck in his project, but man, what a mess to make for one's self...

It's not completely impossible that this guy knows something about Kodak's (and the UK Kodak Pension Plan's -- soon to be the entity that markets Kodak-branded film) plans to not cut and package any more 8x10 TMY-2, which has been a special order item for some time. However, his nonsense about dichroic fog after the film is a mere one year old in his so-called "extreme processing methods" certainly diminishes his credibility in my eyes.

I'm not one who normally sees the future of Kodak film through rose-colored glasses. Nonetheless, I suspect that, since 4x5 TMY-2 is cut from the same master roll as 8x10, we'll continue to see special order availability at least through 2015, at which time the long-term supply agreements for motion picture film expire. That's when I would begin to worry about any Kodak films, in any size, that I wanted to purchase. At this point, the linked item reads like fiction intended to motivate donations. Note too the very specific wording (emphasis added) of this excerpt:

There have been no regular production runs of 8x10 TMY-2 since it was converted to a special order item several years ago. This signifies nothing negative about the availability and freshness of that product bought today from B&H, which places its own minimum quantity special orders, or through K.B. Canham group purchases.

Does anyone remember, not that long ago, where some Kodak PR lady showed up with a message about Kodak might become a "boutique" manufacturer in the future with small runs of special offerings?

And then she disappeared.

And more recently, when Freestyle announced a "new" Arista black and white film to replace the lost Arista Premium line (Kodak Plus-X and Tri-X). The film was to be sourced from the UK by an undisclosed manufacturer.

And then they suddenly pulled the announcement and stated that the deal fell through and wouldn't be coming after all.

THEN... there was a whisper that perhaps Freestyle might be able to resupply the Arista Premium 400 after all, if things go well...

THEN... Kodak announced the end of their own microfilm, now to be supplied by Agfa in Belgium or someplace near there, under contract to Kodak.

THEN... Ferrania announces they are getting back in the color film business - from out of nowhere.

It's all a curious congruency in my little mind.

Does anyone besides me think there are all kinds of deals and contracts being set up behind the scenes for all these smaller sources to provide Kodak film after 2015?

I can see the new Arista and Kodak Tri-X (and versions of TMAX) coming from the UK or other European source, under contract to Kodak.

And I can see "Kodak" color films coming from Ferrania or Lucky in China. And even "Ektachrome" could return.

Will we see, "Manufactured in the EU for Kodak".

Or as Apple says, "Designed in the USA - Manufactured in China"


2015 will be a very interesting year for Kodak film - and us.

wblynch said:

...Does anyone besides me think there are all kinds of deals and contracts being set up behind the scenes for all these smaller sources to provide Kodak film after 2015?

I can see the new Arista and Kodak Tri-X (and versions of TMAX) coming from the UK or other European source, under contract to Kodak.

And I can see "Kodak" color films coming from Ferrania or Lucky in China. And even "Ektachrome" could return.

Will we see, "Manufactured in the EU for Kodak"...

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Can't speak for others, but I don't think the UK Kodak Pension Plan will source film from Ferrania, Lucky or others and market it as "Kodak." I don't believe the terms of its agreement with Kodak will permit that. Of course, this is all pure speculation, since nobody's revealing anything about those terms, and probably won't even after the deal is complete. That's why Colleen never came back to post specifics.

wblynch said:

Does anyone besides me think there are all kinds of deals and contracts being set up behind the scenes for all these smaller sources to provide Kodak film after 2015?

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NO.

That is business where people are mislead and taken use of. But a general conspiracy? No.

Years ago there had the industry already the suspicion been uttered that Agfa would take over by agreement part of Kodak's sales by delivering their films. There were even hints at that.

By the way, the Agfa microfilms are to be sold under a Kodak tradename (Imagelink), but not under the Kodak brand.
Seemingly the latter is no longer of that importance for those customers.

KPP have got their own plant in Harrow now they traded in for a fortune. The only reason for them to order at other manufacturers would be to save on start up cost for own films.
But we don't know the details of the Kodak/KPP contract concerning production formula.

One has to wonder how well analogue photography would be doing if Kodak (and Fujifilm) could speak with authority regarding the future of their products and then actually put in motion a visible plan that clearly works towards improving the market perception of their films.

AgX said:

That article about Chris Walker says that he got T-MAX 400 8x10" out of the last batch.
Considering that Kodak will not sell still film in the future (but a enigmatic follow-up company) and the fact that Walker has been a test photographer for Kodak, that is a interesting statement.

The truth of it will still have to be validated.

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Please stop with the "Kodak will not sell still film" stuff just because of a technicality in ownership/marketing. It's completely apparent to everyone Kodak is still producing still film. The KPP axe grinding is not positive and you need to watch how your words come off as people *run with this stuff* outside of this forum. Please, just stop with it.

The original link is obviously a bunch of falsities so the guy can get other people to pay for his expenses. Completely ridiculous.

clayne said:

Please stop with the "Kodak will not sell still film" stuff just because of a technicality in ownership/marketing. It's completely apparent to everyone Kodak is still producing still film. The KPP axe grinding is not positive and you need to watch how your words come off as people *run with this stuff* outside of this forum. Please, just stop with it.

The original link is obviously a bunch of falsities so the guy can get other people to pay for his expenses. Completely ridiculous.

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Producing film and selling and marketing film are two totally different things.

Kodak emphazised on the independance between them and the new british company.

Nobody asked why Kodak, who were believed to cling so much to still film gave that business out of hand.

That still film part of the new/still to be establisherd entity at KPP is only a small part of that deal. In the official communication on this matter it even is placed only at low rank.

I relate my words to what are the facts rsp. what has been communicated and not what some people wish to be. The photochemical industry is a very complex matter and not just related to those films once on the shelves of photo shops.

It's ranked at a low rank because it's an *ownership* game. Do you seriously believe they're going to just shift all production over there when it's already established here? No, if anything they'll play contractual games. I realize there are a lot of complexities - but there are also definite practicalities. It's not black and white based on who the owner is, they're the sole manufacturer either.

I am not even speaking about shifting production from one plant to another.

But so far the decisionmaking was on Kodak's side, (though often blamed here at Apug of making the wrong decisions), but now Kodak is out of the game on this and concerning still film depending on orders from the new company to come in.

I see your point in stating that such is only a formal matter. But none of us can be sure of this. Especially as both entities are responsible to totally different owners or boards of control. Please let me state this.

Sal Santamaura said:

...this is all pure speculation, since nobody's revealing anything about those terms, and probably won't even after the deal is complete...

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The deal will probably be complete in about two weeks:


I still don't think the terms of Kodak's agreement with the UK Pension Plan will be made public at that time or later. If, after 2015, we start seeing "Kodak" film products sourced anywhere but Bldg. 38 in Rochester, the new distribution/marketing company will have, in my opinion, gone down the same path as those holding rights to the Polaroid name did. In other words, "Kodak" would become a worthless brand name.

We shall see...

That "new distribution and marketing company" is more than that. It got several plants including at least one complete photo plant.