Diazo-Sensitized Carbon Transfer

Bob Carnie · Sep 11, 2012

Chris I am interested as well, when are you planning on doing this?

anikin said:
It sounds wonderful! When you order, I'd like to get 100g of sensitizer. Add me to the list if there is one.

holmburgers · Sep 11, 2012

Anikin, I will start a list and you will be the first person on there, with Bob in tow.

I can't honestly say when this will all go down, but ideally within a month or two? I guess it depends on a number of things though.

The supplier has recommended that before any sort of large-ish order is placed, that a sample of the material be tested. I think this is a good idea considering that the sensitizer can deteriorate and that this stock might be a bit older. However, as a stock of 15 year old UltraStable attests to, this stuff doesn't deteriorate that quickly.

The problem is, I'm currently in no position to conduct tests; all my stuff is in boxes. After October 3rd I might be; I'll be in Rochester then. But in the meantime, if someone could take it upon themselves to conduct a series of tests, that would be awesome. Any volunteers?

Ok, a few more thoughts here. As Greg points out, most people would probably find 100g to be a good amount for starting out. Repackaging X number of kilograms (optimistically, 2-3kg I'd say) into 100g containers is no trivial effort. You need to have accurate weighing, appropriate containers and not to mention, safe handling practices.

I'd be more than happy to do this (the facilities at GEH would make it easier), but there would be some costs for packaging and time. Nothing exorbitant, and I'd keep the whole process very transparent, but it'd raise the price ever so slightly.

2nd option would be to see if Photo Formulary would be interested in buying a large quantity and taking care of the repackaging and distribution. This would have a host of benefits obviously, but would also raise the price to some extent and I don't know what it would mean for international shipping.

The 2nd option is theoretical at this point, but I do get the impression that Bud might accommodate this.

Last point worth mentioning, this chemical is considered non-hazardous by DOT standards, so we need to see what this means for international shipping. I think Europe in particular will love the diazo idea since dichromates are so hard to get a hold of, and I'd love to be able to send it across the pond for anyone interested.

*break*

gmikol · Sep 11, 2012

holmburgers said:
The supplier has recommended that before any sort of large-ish order is placed, that a sample of the material be tested. I think this is a good idea considering that the sensitizer can deteriorate and that this stock might be a bit older. However, as a stock of 15 year old UltraStable attests to, this stuff doesn't deteriorate that quickly.

Without a "gold standard" sample to compare it to (e.g. fresh analytical grade from Sigma-Aldrich or something like that), at best the testing would confirm that it is "acceptable"...good enough to work for our purposes. And maybe that's all we need. But we're left not knowing how much "life" is left in it. I think every alt-printer here is used to the idea of having to re-test one's materials from time to time, though.

The bigger question, I think, is whether there will even be another production run, or will we just keep buying from the same batch until it is exhausted, and then be out of luck. Given Secant's current pricing, I'd have to imagine that even a scaled-down production run would have a pricing advantage over TCI, if it happens.

With all that being said, some might think I'm opposed to the idea of a group purchase. Not at all. I started this thread after all, and was just starting to think about re-starting my experimentation with this material when holmburgers popped up with this idea. I just want to make sure everyone understands the possible pros and cons.

Anyone out there have thoughts on what a battery of incoming acceptance tests might be for this material? I have some ideas, but I'd like to hear what others think, first.

--Greg

NOTE to CMB: Charles, do you know where Tod Gangler gets his sensitizer from? Hopefully, I'll get a chance to meet him and ask him in person in a couple of weeks, but if you knew now, that might be helpful.

CMB · Sep 11, 2012

gmikol said:
NOTE to CMB: Charles, do you know where Tod Gangler gets his sensitizer from? Hopefully, I'll get a chance to meet him and ask him in person in a couple of weeks, but if you knew now, that might be helpful.

In 2004, Tod and John Bently had Seacant manufacture a special run of the Hardnener #3 (lot #040412). They are both using that material today with no problem. My guess is that the 60kg is the remainder of that run.

Tod has offered to test the sample that Secant sends.

Charles

gmikol · Sep 11, 2012

Interesting...the sample Secant sent me last August (2011), was from lot # 031202. The assay report was dated December 2008. It seems the stuff I got was 4 months older (December 2003 vs. April 2004, if I'm reading the lot #'s correctly) than Tod and John's lot.

I hadn't paid attention to that when I got the sample. In the limited testing I got to do before I got too busy with other things, it certainly seemed to work fine.

--Greg

mipesa · Sep 12, 2012

I'm interested as well if it can be shipped internationally (Switzerland). Count me in for at least 100g (maybe even more).

Miika

CRhymer · Sep 12, 2012

Hello Chris,

At the $180.00 per kg. (plus some shipping and handling) I would buy 1kg. Shipping to Canada by USPS Priority Mail International would be no problem.

Cheers,

Clarence Rhymer
Fort Smith, NT
Canada

ps Congrats and good luck with your time in Rochester.

holmburgers · Sep 12, 2012

Hey all,

I put a thread on the Yahoo! Carbon Transfer group and have already got a number of emails from interested people. So far this is going very well!

Charles, Tod's offer to test the Secant sample is incredibly generous (not to mention you going out of your way to mention it to him), and I don't think I'm alone in saying that there's no person I'd feel more comfortable with doing the testing. Please give him a big THANKS! Unless I hear protest from others, I say let's go for that.

Would it be best if Secant sent the sample direct to Seattle? If I need to reach out to Tod, or something, just let me know, or if you have an address you can give me that'd be great.

It's also comforting to know that the material is most likely in good shape. Interesting about your sample Greg; I guess this stuff is even fresher then.

Miika, I'll put you on the list and note that you're in Switzerland. I'd really like to make this work for international buyers as well, so hopefully we can accomodate you and others.

p.s. Got you on the list Clarence, and thanks!

Nocny Marek · Sep 13, 2012

Hi,
I would also like to take part in this purchase. Please include me on the list for 200 grams.

Thansk,
Marek from Poland

CMB · Sep 13, 2012

holmburgers said:
Charles,

Would it be best if Secant sent the sample direct to Seattle? If I need to reach out to Tod, or something, just let me know, or if you have an address you can give me that'd be great.

I suggest you contact Tod directly and work out the details with him. He can be found at:

Art & Soul
2860 NW Market St
Seattle, WA 98107
206.297.1223
Tod@colorcarbonprint.com

Greg: Tod is looking forward to meeting you at alt-photo pacifica.

Photo Engineer · Sep 13, 2012

Chris;

I hope you realize how difficult it will be to ship chemicals outside of the US. Especially these compounds.

PE

Bob Carnie · Sep 13, 2012

I was hoping he would smuggle them through his suitcase when he visits Toronto.

Chris.. when you get to visit Toronto we will put you up... but remember fish stinks after two days so thats my offer, two evenings then you get your sorry ass back to Rochester.
Ron and I have been planning a visit where we come to Rochester in Jan, maybe around that time would be appropriate for you to visit Toronto as we can drive you at least one way.
I will take you over to John Bently's studio to meet him and see his wonderful four colour carbons.. I consider Todd G and John B the best in this field.. I have never seen Girards work so I cannot speak of his prints.. The only other prints I have seen were David Schraders from California, and his work was very good as CMB can attest, all his prints were on the Melemex and not transfered to heavy watercolour as John and Todds work has been done. I have tried to find out where he went as its strange that he did such nice work, but does not seem to be working on carbon now.
Also Sandy King has hanging at his home some very nice tri colour carbons that he made back in the 80's. Sandy and I made some colour carbon tissue, my last visit with good results.

I think Chris this is a very good direction and initiative you are taking and wish you the best success.

Bob

Photo Engineer said:
Chris;

I hope you realize how difficult it will be to ship chemicals outside of the US. Especially these compounds.

PE

Photo Engineer · Sep 13, 2012

Chris;

A good time to visit Bob's home is in Jan. He will be here!

If you take up the one way offer, then this will be interesting. But then, there is always the train back to Rochester.

Bob; I will show you my full width rolls of Melenex and Ultrastable.

Pe

holmburgers · Sep 17, 2012

Marek, I have you down for 200 grams; thank you!

However, PE might be right about int'l shipping and I guess we need to get this figured out for sure, before getting people's hopes up. So far, interest has been about 50% international, 50% US.

Charles, thank you, I'll get in touch with Tod.

Bob, wow, this sounds awesome; let's plan on it. 2 days and then I'll get the hell out of Dodge; Scout's honor. Shouldn't I be able to just cross-country ski across Lake Ontario in January though??

Photo Engineer · Sep 17, 2012

Lake Ontario is open to shipping year round. However, the edges freeze quite far out, but are very rough due to heavy waves. You could walk on it if it were not so rough.

PE

Bob Carnie · Sep 17, 2012

two nights, then I start letting the air out of the mattress. I think you will enjoy meeting John Bentley as well, you should plan an afternoon with him.

We will be coming back from Rochester or going there so you have a ride one way at least.

holmburgers said:
Marek, I have you down for 200 grams; thank you!

However, PE might be right about int'l shipping and I guess we need to get this figured out for sure, before getting people's hopes up. So far, interest has been about 50% international, 50% US.

Charles, thank you, I'll get in touch with Tod.

Bob, wow, this sounds awesome; let's plan on it. 2 days and then I'll get the hell out of Dodge; Scout's honor. Shouldn't I be able to just cross-country ski across Lake Ontario in January though??

holmburgers · Sep 17, 2012

Here are some key pieces of information from Sigma-Aldrich's MSDS for CAS: 2718-90-3.

- No known OSHA hazards.
- Not a dangerous substance according to GHS.
- Contains no substances with occupational exposure limit values.
Shipping
DOT (US) - Not dangerous goods.
IMDG - Not dangerous goods.
IATA - Not dangerous goods.

I personally think this bodes very well for shipping overseas. Potassium dichromate on the other hand has a restriction in every category. So as far as any shipping entity cares, this stuff is no worse than table salt. It might be wise to check with individual country's regulations, but I think if we label the shipments "Screen Printing Ingredient", there shouldn't be a lot of interference.

gmikol · Sep 17, 2012

I'd say, don't even be that specific...how about just "photograhpic chemical".

Better yet, find out if Secant is equipped to ship overseas...let them handle all of the shipping (domestic and international), the same way that Sandy did with RDS for the coating rods.

--Greg

Photo Engineer · Sep 17, 2012

If they do the "dividing" and the shipping then the price will go up to the higher one per unit purchased.

And, my thoughts were about customs. Remember a while back an APUG member had his E6 kit opened and ruined by customs, and he was apparently suspected of bringing in a controlled substance.

PE

holmburgers · Sep 17, 2012

That's a very real concern PE. I wonder what the best way to avoid this is?

The question is how often does this happen, realistically? And would that problem be any different if I was doing the shipping as opposed to a company? I guess the worst thing is that if someone's shipment is compromised, someone is going to be out of money; either me or the buyer.

Photo Engineer · Sep 17, 2012

The problem is, I have no idea!

Sorry.

PE

Bob Carnie · Sep 17, 2012

Chris
Have the stuff come to one location in the US where you will be.. let each person be responsible of picking it up and shipping issues. You could be opening yourself
to a lot of grief/hassel otherwise.
Bob

Photo Engineer said:
The problem is, I have no idea!

Sorry.

PE

holmburgers · Sep 17, 2012

Well the plan at present is to ship the big order to me, and I will package and ship everything out myself; adjusting the price a bit to account for shipping/packing supplies and my time. My goal is to not raise the price beyond $200/kg (currently at $180/kg). This should be pretty easy to achieve.

As for the liabilitiy of shipping, I guess the best I can do is offer USPS insurance and to make completely sure that this chemical is indeed legal to ship to wherever it's heading. Beyond that, we can't plan for anything outside of that. In the case of the aforementioned E6 guy; that was a mistake on the post office's fault, a freak occurrence if you will.

I ship things all the time and have yet to have any serious problems; including international. The fact that it's a chemical does change things a bit, but we have to assume that the usual channels will function as their supposed to.

holmburgers · Sep 18, 2012

Just had someone PM me who is interested in using azide sensitizer for photogravure. I don't see any reason why it wouldn't work great for that, but wanted to see what others thought.

gmikol · Sep 18, 2012

My understanding is that photogravure tissue is very similar in composition carbon transfer tissue. It's still gelatin...Don't see why it wouldn't work.

--Greg

Diazo-Sensitized Carbon Transfer

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