Diazo-Sensitized Carbon Transfer

mdm · Jul 17, 2011

Give it a try, perhaps you are right. Is it white?

Photo Engineer · Jul 17, 2011

TiO2 in both the Anatase and Rutile form absorb a LOT of UV radiation and therefore could increase exposure time by making less UV available for the "real" exposure. The light sensitivity that they talk about is related to internal energy transfer from light and UV absorption, and this makes TiO2 a very good substrate (alone) for electronic (digital) imaging.

PE

holmburgers · Jul 18, 2011

This company sells 4,4'-Diazidostilbene-2,2'-disulfonic Acid Disodium Salt, CAS: 2718-90-3.

http://www.secantchemicals.com/products.html

and here too...

http://www.tciamerica.com/catalog/D1606.html

gmikol · Jul 18, 2011

Yep...

I won't post Secant's pricing without permission, but I will say that it is very favorable compared to TCI America's published pricing on their website.

Will probably be ordering a couple of different compounds from them in the next few weeks for testing.

--Greg

gmikol · Jul 19, 2011

CMB shared an interesting tip with me the other day in a PM, and he said it was OK to share in this thread:

CMB said:
It seems you've located a source for Hardener No.3 (Diazidostilbene Sodium Sulfonate) and the next thing to do is figure out how to use it.

When testing it, I recommend that you keep in mind Kosar's statement that it can be used in a similar fashion as dichromate. Thus, if you are used to making up a three percent PD solution and tray soaking for however long, do the same with the Hardener #3. Be careful that when mixing it with water, you do not allow the temp to exceed 85F. Try not to change anything in your technique except substitue Hardener #3 for dichromate. It will be a good place to start...

Thanks, CMB!

--Greg

mdm · Jul 21, 2011

Well done! I will be interested to hear how it goes. How are they shipping it?

I am waiting for a coating rod to arrive from the group order that was organised elsewhere and then I am going to try making a colour print with halftone seperations and my screen printing sensitiser stuff. I could pour without the rod but it is easier to just wait.

David

holmburgers · Jul 21, 2011

Are you making color tissues?

mdm · Jul 21, 2011

Intend making some next weekend if the rod arrives before then. The permanent pigments (see Nadeau) can be had at paint mixing places. CMYK seperations can be made (without photoshop) using Gimp with the Seperate+ plugin and turned into halftones using the newsprint filter. Contrast is then not a variable, leaving only exposure/pigment load to get right. Registration is another story but I will try a big carpenters square to to get started. I am going to try the double transfer system in Tod Ganglers videos so I dont stain the final support with my screen printing sensitiser. Apparently registration can be a problem with single transfer except with something like yupo which is reasonably dimensionally stable. I am not shure that halftones are the way I want to go but it is a good place to start exploring. Non CMYK prints can also be made using duotone and tritone seperations and halftone negatives, without the frustrations of curve building so its a process worth exploring. Obviously QTR curves or real negatives are the ideal.

gmikol · Jul 21, 2011

Good luck with your color tissues and prints. One concern is whether the clearing baths may have a negative effect on the pigments. I would recommend making some un-sensitized samples so you can do a before- and after-clearing comparison to see if there is any color shift or other damage.

--Greg

holmburgers · Jul 21, 2011

As I understand it, these pigments are generally very chemically stable. I had not thought to check at paint mixing places, but I got a set of CMY pigments from Lansco Colors. I followed Nadeau's recommendations as well as I could; Quinacridone Magenta 122, Phthalo Blue 15:3 and Yellow Azo 155 (not sure about this yellow).

The half-tone route does sound appealing for the reasons you state. Are you going to try to turn them at angles to avoid moire or just go for it?

Really looking forward to hearing about your experience with this!

mdm · Jul 21, 2011

C=15o M=75o Y=0o K=90o for no reason other than that is the default.
Arylimid Yellow, Quinacridone Magenta, Copper Phtalocyanine.

Hexavalent · Jul 21, 2011

mdm said:
C=15o M=75o Y=0o K=90o for no reason other than that is the default.
Arylimid Yellow, Quinacridone Magenta, Copper Phtalocyanine.

45 deg is considered the "prime angle" as it is the least offensive to the eye and is usually reserved for the Black plate.

I've tried halftoning with carbon with varied results; high-contrast tissue and a hard dot negative = okay. The soft dot of inkjets can cause dot gain/etch issues which then demands VERY consistent exposure and processing of the carbon tissue.

If you can get negs ripped on an imagesetter with accurate screen angles + frequencies, life will be much easier. It only takes a 1/2 dot misregistration to switch from solid to open centred rosettes.

Several years of prepress and hand-coding postscript taught me this the hard way

mdm · Jul 21, 2011

Thanks for your input. I will give it a try, perhaps with low resolution, like 65lpi rather than 400lpi.

gmikol · Jul 21, 2011

mdm said:
Arylimid Yellow, Quinacridone Magenta, Copper Phtalocyanine.

For those of us without a copy of Nadeau, exactly which yellow is this (CI # or PY #)?

--Greg

mdm · Jul 22, 2011

Permanent Yellow or Arylamid pigment. (Thats all I know.)
Permanent Rose or Quinacridone
Thalo Blue or Copper Phtalocyanine

I emailed tech support for a paint company and they told me what letter on their paint console thing corresponds to the correct pigments. In my case, Resene and it is M, A and E.

holmburgers · Jul 25, 2011

gmikol said:
For those of us without a copy of Nadeau, exactly which yellow is this (CI # or PY #)?

--Greg

(there was a url link here which no longer exists) has two sets mentioned in the book; there's another one that uses water-color pigments and is more geared towards gum methinks.

mdm · Jul 25, 2011

I replied to the wrong thread. I have 2 mono colour prints in the yahoo carbon gallery.

mdm said:
I got mine from Modern Carbon Printing. I have used the colours recomended, to pour CMYK tissues which I have not printed yet, and just to mix coloured glop and to tint my black glop. Cant recommend paint tints enough, very easy and fun to work with. I am about to post a blue-green print made with cyan and yellow and have used magenta to get a mahogany tint, probably needs a touch of yellow too, but I have not printed it yet. They are easier to disperse than watercolour pigments even. Another option may be mixol or caltint. I have used mixol and its super nice but I am not shure if they have process colours.

dry pigment=massive headache and wasted glop or LOTS of patience.

David

gmikol · Aug 5, 2011

@mdm

Any progress on your 4-color attempts?

I should be receiving samples from Secant today of the UltraStable sensitizer and a diazo that's similar to what mdm used in his first experiments. Won't get to do anything with them for a week or so, though.

--Greg

mdm · Aug 5, 2011

I poured some sensitised colour tissue about 10 days ago but it is in the deep freeze as I have had visitors until this morning. I also mixed up some dichromated albumen and coated a sheet about a week ago. I had not seen Tod Ganglers video at the time and it was not a success. So I will have another go today and may make a test print on yupo. I have made some prints with a green tissue mixed with C and Y paint pigment, and also with prussian blue watercolour paint. You can do a lot with just one coloured tissue and tinted sizing. When printing with a coloured tissue, its the saturation of the colour that changes in the print, not brightness as with black tissue. Even working with 1 colour your tissue does not have to be opaque, so exposure times are short (+- 1/3 of a black exposre time for green anyway) and relief is psyco. Tinting your black tissue really lifts the look of your prints to something that cant be replicated using any other process. Colour is fun, the hard work is still to come.

phritz phantom · Aug 11, 2011

has anyone tried the Speedball Diazo Sensitizer?
it is available seperately, without the emulsion - for about $/€6 for 2 oz.
MSDS:
http://www.speedballart.com/cms_wfc/uploads/35.pdf

but this might be something completely different than the chemicals discussed in this thread, because the MSDS mentions
- Polymethylene-p-Diazo Benzene Dye (CAS #71550-45-3)
- Phosphoric Acid (CAS #7664-38-2)
as ingredients.
probably worth a try though...

did anyone have any luck obtaining the pure chemical or "hardener no.3" so far?
i just saw this posted on the b&s board: Dead Link Removed
being a source from europe, this is very interesting to me. but all those chemical names sure are confusing. and all of their chemicals come as a powder. would that be more hazardous to handle than a solution?

and the "hardener no.3" is mentioned as being a substitute for the dichromates. would this stuff also work with the other colloids, like gum, casein etc.?
and the stuff stays in the printed image after processing? it does not wash out as the dichromate does? i guess this won't affect the stability of the prints (... hence the ULTRASTABLE name).

gmikol · Aug 11, 2011

Phritz--

At the risk of being rude, did you read this thread?

In brief summary:

--The use of Speedball sensitizer is discussed in the original post to this thread, (there was a url link here which no longer exists).

--2 possible sources for "Hardener #3" (Diazidostilbene Sodium Sulfonate, or 4,4'-Diazidostilbene-2,2'-disulfonic Acid Disodium Salt, CAS: 2718-90-3) are identified (there was a url link here which no longer exists).

--I mention having ordered samples of Diazidostilbene Sodium Sulfonate (there was a url link here which no longer exists). Though I have not had an opportunity to test it, yet.

I have not been able to track down the CAS# of the ND22 sensitizer identified on the B&S board, from PJS Chemical. But I have received a sample of a close chemical cousin, 4-Diazodiphenylamine/formaldehyde condensate hydrogen sulfate zinc chloride complex (CAS 68988-17-0), also not tested yet.

The families of chemicals discussed here (diazos and azides) are capable of polymerizing a great number of things, including gelatin, and are most likely capable of doing so with gum and casein, though I don't know of anyone who has made those efforts.

In principle, any molecule that has received enough UV energy to contribute to image formation will stay in the gelatin. Anything that did not react will either come out in the development and washing process, or be removed by the clearing bath, discussed (there was a url link here which no longer exists).

For the 2 chemicals I received samples of, and based on the MSDS sheets I received with them, I would say that handling them poses no greater risk to human health, than say, handling selenium toner powder or dichromate powders. Appropriate care should be taken to protect your eyes, skin, respiratory tract and other mucous membranes from airborne dust and direct contact. As always, it is up to the individual user to review all safety information regarding a specific chemical or process, and take all necessary measures to protect oneself.

My brief summary turned out to not be so brief, but I hope this helps.

--Greg

mdm · Aug 11, 2011

Thanks for your work.

I made some cmyk transfers onto albumen coated mylar a while back with my screen printing sensitised tissue, but at 3.5 min exposure I did not get enough density (close though) and the yellow transfer was very thin, so maybe yellow needs more exposure even than black, I was using the edge of an A3 tissue though so that could be the cause. Also it stains the cyan tissue so much that it looks green. I will be interested to hear how the stuff you have works and if it is strongly yellow staining.

This is now my busy period at work so things have stalled and wont progress for a few months.

David

phritz phantom · Aug 11, 2011

gmikol said:
Phritz--

At the risk of being rude, did you read this thread?

sorry, yes i did. but i just spent about 12h in front of the computer reading about diazo and the ciba system and in between trying to locate the mentioned products in various european mailorders. thanks for your patience.

i confused you and mdm and thought the whole initial part of the thread was about the kiwocol 225 sensitizer (which was proven as working later on).

did you do another try with the speedball after the first? i couldn't find anything.

--2 possible sources for "Hardener #3" (Diazidostilbene Sodium Sulfonate, or 4,4'-Diazidostilbene-2,2'-disulfonic Acid Disodium Salt, CAS: 2718-90-3) are identified (there was a url link here which no longer exists).

--I mention having ordered samples of Diazidostilbene Sodium Sulfonate (there was a url link here which no longer exists). Though I have not had an opportunity to test it, yet.

I have not been able to track down the CAS# of the ND22 sensitizer identified on the B&S board, from PJS Chemical. But I have received a sample of a close chemical cousin, 4-Diazodiphenylamine/formaldehyde condensate hydrogen sulfate zinc chloride complex (CAS 68988-17-0), also not tested yet.

you've received it, but not printed yet? great, please post results.
i'm ordering from europe, so those two sources most likely won't work for me. pjs might though. when the stuff has been proven usable, i'll try and locate some around here.

speaking of which, has someone thought about contacting a screen printing supplyer with the patent informantion on "hardener no.3" and if they could say which one of their sensitizing solutions is closest to that formula? the same with pjs.
i could try and email kiwo, since they are a german company, afaik.

gmikol · Aug 12, 2011

phritz phantom said:
did you do another try with the speedball after the first? i couldn't find anything.

Yes, I made a second try, but did not publish any results. It was another failure, but this time, there was absolutely no image formation. The tissue dissolved completely after mating. I used the same sensitizer I had put into solution for my first test, but considerably less. Seems like it lost all sensitivity. I suspect that the Speedball sensitizer is not stable enough for this application. I will not be making any more trials with it.

phritz phantom said:
...trying to locate the mentioned products in various european mailorders...

One of the suppliers in the US I looked at also has a European division:

TCI Europe

Not the best pricing, but it's a start.

Good luck--

Greg

CMB · Aug 12, 2011

gmikol said:
Phritz--

The families of chemicals discussed here (diazos and azides) are capable of polymerizing a great number of things, including gelatin, and are most likely capable of doing so with gum and casein, though I don't know of anyone who has made those efforts.

--Greg

USPatent 3,721,557, which discusses light-sensitive color transfer sheets, specifically mentions the ability of diazos and azides to polymerize casein as well as other hydrophilic polymers such as gelatin.

The Patent also lists a number of compounds (in addition to Hardner #3) which have this capability. It also provides an extensive list of color pigments which can be used to make the color sheets.

Diazo-Sensitized Carbon Transfer

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