Diagnostic: Ilford Art 300 Prints are "Inky"

Christine Lee Smith · Mar 28, 2020

So I had to make a recent switch of darkrooms due to all the shut downs. And I'm having quite a bit of trouble in my new space. And I'm working with so many new variables I'm not sure how to diagnose the issues I'm having. Any feedback is appreciated.

Paper: Ilford Art 300, 8x10
Developer: Arista liquid
Stop: Arista
Fix: Arista
Dev. Time: 3 min

So I've printed with this paper before in my regular lab with Dektol developer with no issue. Tones come out smooth and reliable (and with paper from this same box).

But the prints I was making today feel "blue-ish" or "ink-y." And I'm seeing some of that ink-y-ness around the edges of the easel framed print. And this paper naturally has a subtle warm tone to it.

Any ideas?

Thanks!

koraks · Mar 28, 2020

How does it look when the paper is dry?

Christine Lee Smith · Mar 28, 2020

koraks said:
How does it look when the paper is dry?

Still wet. But even these wet look very different than what I'm used to seeing while wet.

Vaughn · Mar 28, 2020

Two different developers...the Arista having no metol. So different print colors are no great surprise.

Arista Liquid developer is marketed as a neutral tone developer. Dektol works nicely as a neutral to warm tone developer.

New darkroom -- look for unsafe light being reflected off surroundings.

Edited to correct myself -- was looking at the wrong thing. The edges of the paper might have been mechanically exposed, so to speak, during cutting the paper down (at the factory or at home). Just a guess. I know photopaper can become pressure sensitive when first put in the developer, perhaps it is also true when dry. A few silver salt molecules split by the cutter, then developed? Might be aided by the type of paper base.

Guillaume Zuili · Mar 28, 2020

Looks like contamination in the developer tray. Leftover Dektol with the Arista Dev.

scheimfluger_77 · Mar 28, 2020

Could we see the negatives?

Andrew O'Neill · Mar 28, 2020

Can you not mix up your own bottle of Dektol and see what happens?

koraks · Mar 28, 2020

Guillaume Zuili said:
Looks like contamination in the developer tray. Leftover Dektol with the Arista Dev.

Please elaborate. I'm curious how this contamination would actually produce anything apart from a hypothetical change in image characteristics or development speed only revealed by very thorough and systematic comparison under lab conditions. What would the mechanism be? Have you experienced this problem and traced it to this particular cause?

Vaughn · Mar 28, 2020

When I saw marks like this (tho a little more extreme) on students prints in the university darkroom, it was past time to clean the bottom of the developer trays.

Fenlander · Mar 28, 2020

I've had prints on Ilford Warmtone FB (not Art300 in my case) paper that quickly went blueish when they hadn't been sufficiently fixed. I'd been overoptimistic as to the life of the fixer. Try refixing in fresh fixer. If that doesn't solve it I'd suspect contamination in the dev as above.

Andrew O'Neill · Mar 28, 2020

Vaughn said:
When I saw marks like this (tho a little more extreme) on students prints in the university darkroom, it was past time to clean the bottom of the developer trays.

That's a good point, Vaughn. It also looks similar to prints developed in exhausted developer. I've noticed that with my students when I tried to save money by stretching the developer to a third day.

pentaxuser · Mar 28, 2020

It might help if we were to see two or more 8x10 prints done in Dektol and Arista liquid such that each picture was that of the prints alone A kind of compare and contrast

pentaxuser

Vaughn · Mar 28, 2020

Andrew O'Neill said:
That's a good point, Vaughn. It also looks similar to prints developed in exhausted developer. I've noticed that with my students when I tried to save money by stretching the developer to a third day.

If the assistants just dumped the old developer and refilled the trays without a good rinse, there would be a build-up of silver of the bottom of the trays (things would get hectic in there). We ran two processing 'lines' -- 12x16 SS trays with about a half-gallon of chemistry in them...with an option of replacing one of the sets of 12x16 trays with a 16x20 set.

In the darkroom's heyday, each developer tray might need to be changed 4 or more times a day as we had 125+ photo students each semester, and open darkroom times to midnight, 7 days/week. The black slime could build up fast in the trays, lol!

But I don't think this is the OP's problem -- the black slime was more messy.

Most likely scenerio to me: Due to the watercolor paper qualities of the photopaper, the developer has soaked deep into the edges of paper via the cut edges. This developer remains even after the Stop Bath and is carried over into the fixer where it could develop any silver also absorbed into the cut edges of the paper.

Christine Lee Smith · Mar 28, 2020

Thanks everyone for your input. I have uploaded two photos of earlier work prints I made before the shut down, using the Dektol.

Reading through everyone’s comments it seems to me like there are three things I can try:

- scrubbing down the trays (never trust an undergrad lab tech?)
- starting with fresh chemistry (I did mix up fresh Arista developer but I trusted the fixer bc the hypo check came out clear)
- seeing if I can get my hands on either the Ilford developer or dektol

I’m also wondering about the safe lights. The ones in this new dark room are all red. Prior I was working in a dark room with amber lights. And someone else were suggested this could be causing issues with this paper.

mshchem · Mar 29, 2020

If you were using selenium toner I would suspect the fixing was inadequate. I took a photography course in high school and in college. I couldn't stand working with the school chemistry.
I love this paper, it's just emulsion laying on a beautiful paper. I've noticed that in my experience that the emulsion seems a bit more delicate. Ilford's other fiber papers with baryta substrate are really tough.
There's so much tooth to the Art 300, it could indeed just be crud or some other particulate.
Maybe you should smuggle in a clean tray and some Dektol.
I use selenium with this and get beautiful warm blacks.

Christine Lee Smith · Mar 29, 2020

mshchem said:
If you were using selenium toner I would suspect the fixing was inadequate. I took a photography course in high school and in college. I couldn't stand working with the school chemistry.
I love this paper, it's just emulsion laying on a beautiful paper. I've noticed that in my experience that the emulsion seems a bit more delicate. Ilford's other fiber papers with baryta substrate are really tough.
There's so much tooth to the Art 300, it could indeed just be crud or some other particulate.
Maybe you should smuggle in a clean tray and some Dektol.
I use selenium with this and get beautiful warm blacks.

Thanks for sharing that. I’ve used the other Ilford FB and it was really sturdy.

My plan at this point is to go back and scrub down the trays, bring my own developer and try again.

Guillaume Zuili · Mar 30, 2020

koraks said:
Please elaborate. I'm curious how this contamination would actually produce anything apart from a hypothetical change in image characteristics or development speed only revealed by very thorough and systematic comparison under lab conditions. What would the mechanism be? Have you experienced this problem and traced it to this particular cause?

I made the mistake long time ago to lith print using a tray with the stain of Dektol. I got the exact same traces seen on the prints that were posted.
So scrubbing the tray is the only solution or have one tray for each kind of developer.

pentaxuser · Mar 30, 2020

Christine I take it that the inky blue you refer to is in the colour of the prints but exactly what are the other marks to which you refer ? There has been a lot of posts citing almost every possible cause but you mentioned doing any lith printing so can we at least reach a consensus that any residue of one "normal" paper developer when another normal paper developer is used cannot cause the problem(s) to which you refer

Was there any sign of dried fixer stain in the trays or indeed any signs of stain and have you asked the lab assistants if it is their policy to interchange developer and fixer trays after the darkroom closes. What happens to the trays? Are they washed or simply allowed to drip dry land then are freely interchanged for the next session? Do you see other users there and if so has any of them mentioned similar problems?

What we seem to have failed to do is collectively tried to reach a consensus on what are likely to be and not likely to be the causes. That might be a start

pentaxuser

koraks · Mar 30, 2020

Guillaume Zuili said:
I made the mistake long time ago to lith print using a tray with the stain of Dektol. I got the exact same traces seen on the prints that were posted.
So scrubbing the tray is the only solution or have one tray for each kind of developer.

Lith is a little different from regular paper development in that lith developer only contains hydroquinone and the addition of metol or phenidone (eg through carry over in a contaminated tray) could impact the functioning of the lith developer. Furthermore, lith developers are notorious for giving staining with prolonged development times. I never scrub my trays; just rinse them once or twice and find no ill effects.
So don't assume that what is problematic with lith will translate to normal developers; they're different animals.

Christine Lee Smith · Mar 31, 2020

pentaxuser said:
Christine I take it that the inky blue you refer to is in the colour of the prints but exactly what are the other marks to which you refer ? There has been a lot of posts citing almost every possible cause but you mentioned doing any lith printing so can we at least reach a consensus that any residue of one "normal" paper developer when another normal paper developer is used cannot cause the problem(s) to which you refer

Was there any sign of dried fixer stain in the trays or indeed any signs of stain and have you asked the lab assistants if it is their policy to interchange developer and fixer trays after the darkroom closes. What happens to the trays? Are they washed or simply allowed to drip dry land then are freely interchanged for the next session? Do you see other users there and if so has any of them mentioned similar problems?

What we seem to have failed to do is collectively tried to reach a consensus on what are likely to be and not likely to be the causes. That might be a start

pentaxuser

Hello ... the inky part is in the tone of the print, which is also showing up on the edge of the paper.

I haven't used any special toning chemicals - no lith or anything else.

Yes, there were possible dried fixer stains, and the lab does not track which trays are used for which chemicals.

I'll be headed back this week after my developer arrives (Ilford MG). I'll be doing a clean on all trays, and a fresh batch of everything. I'll report back once I have some results.

Diagnostic: Ilford Art 300 Prints are "Inky"

Christine Lee Smith

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