Diafine home brew

Gerald C Koch · Dec 14, 2014

Once you get away from standard film development (developer, stop bath, fixer) results can become film dependent. You can see this from the EI speeds listed for Diafine compared to the box speeds. If two bath development worked like regular development there would a constant speed increase for all films. In reality some films react better to Diafine than do others. So as Michael points out adding a restrainer to the formula may not be so simple. It might require recalibrating the developer for each film you use it for.

BTW, the Diafine bath B is not a simple alkaline bath. From the MSDS it contains: sodium sulfite, sodium carbonate, sodium bicarbonate, and trisodium phosphate. These are the listed chemicals but we know MSDS's do not require all chemicals to be listed.

Roger Cole · Dec 14, 2014

ParkerSmithPhoto said:
I've used it both ways over the years. A few years back when I was shooting a ton of 120, I took Sandy King's method (see his View Camera Magazine article) of diluting it 1:1 and using it one shot so I could do five rolls at a time in Paterson tanks on a motor base. At 4oz total (diluted) solution per roll it was very economical at the old price per gallon.

My goal was to start processing that way again but obviously at a lower cost per roll. Hence the home brew.

I ran several more tests last night and this morning, with positive results. Will report back later.

I'll check out the article when I get a chance. But the purpose is just to be able to develop more rolls at once? Diafine comes in gallons - the quarts cost a lot more. Can't you just use more straight Diafine and use inversion? Or is there some other benefit besides less total solution to using it diluted and one shot? Ok, answer may be in the article - sorry I'm SO busy...will try to read it. Playing hooky just to dash off this response...

Gerald C Koch · Dec 15, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
Jerry - where did you find all that extra MSDS info on Diafine bath B? All I could fine was an MSDS listing sodium carbonate (other ingredients missing). It is an interesting mixture. I wonder why TSP would be in there other than to possibly increase the pH of a buffered carbonate mixture. In any case, it would mean the real Diafine bath B is even further removed than I thought from the substitute formula's metaborate bath.

It is an interesting mixture. You have in addition to carbonate, bicarbonate which would lower the pH but also TSP which would raise the pH. Very curious. Below is the site for the MSDS.

http://msdsreport.com/msds/BDZMR

This also points out the problem of using a substitute formula and the real thing.

Whether there is a borate present in a particular solution can always be determined by the use of turmeric paper. This is made from the common yellow spice and turns from yellow to brown when it contacts a borate solution. You can easily make your own using ground turmeric, alcohol and filter paper but the test paper is very inexpensive for a vial of 100 strips.

Gerald C Koch · Dec 15, 2014

Michael R 1974 said:
Thanks for that link.

Diafine A is even more curious. It contains TSP and citric acid.

The presence of TSP would require the presence of a calcium chelating agent to prevent the precipitation of calcium phosphate from the baths if they are mixed with tap water.

ParkerSmithPhoto · Dec 15, 2014

Okay, so I set up a simple target in the basement, and photographed it with a strobe that never varies more than 1/10 of a stop.

Bronica SQ,
100mm f4 lens @ f16
TMAX 400 Film

Developed the film as follows, in stainless tanks, chemistry at 25°C

1) 4 min A + 4 min B, agitating 5 seconds every minute in both baths.

2) 3 min A + 3 min B, agitating 5 seconds every minute in Bath A, and agitating 2 seconds every minute in Bath B.

3) Tested for development in Bath A: TMAX 400, I developed a strip in Bath A ONLY, fixed it, and there was indeed almost no discernible development. Just had to see for myself.

Results (sponsored by Sailor Jerry's Spiced Rum)

Visually, the negs all looked a bit hot, which proved to be true; a grade 1 was needed to make an acceptable print. There is PLENTY of shadow detail on the negative, so I need to really tame the contrast. Need advice there. Obviously I’d like to get a negative that fits more of a grade 2.

After printing the two negatives with identical exposures, the SECOND negative, which has less development and less agitation, was essentially identical to the first. So, no need to wait the extra minute. Time is money.

I’ve attached a scan of the 8x10, and also a crop from a 16” print. Look at the clarity in the dark green leaves of the artificial poinsettia: you can see the threads. Nice grain pattern as well. There is some speckling or grain "noise" visible on the color chart and the sticky note (see the large crop).

http://www.parkersmithphoto.com/clientftp/docs/Diafine/Diafine at 16inches.jpg

http://www.parkersmithphoto.com/clientftp/docs/Diafine/Diafine at 8 inches.jpg

ParkerSmithPhoto · Dec 15, 2014

Gerald C Koch said:
Once you get away from standard film development (developer, stop bath, fixer) results can become film dependent. You can see this from the EI speeds listed for Diafine compared to the box speeds. If two bath development worked like regular development there would a constant speed increase for all films. In reality some films react better to Diafine than do others. So as Michael points out adding a restrainer to the formula may not be so simple. It might require recalibrating the developer for each film you use it for.

BTW, the Diafine bath B is not a simple alkaline bath. From the MSDS it contains: sodium sulfite, sodium carbonate, sodium bicarbonate, and trisodium phosphate. These are the listed chemicals but we know MSDS's do not require all chemicals to be listed.

The MSDS lists:

Bath A

sodium sulfite (75-85%)
hydroquinone
trisodium phosphate
citric acid
potassium bromide

Bath B

sodium sulfite (60-70%)
sodium carbonate (20-30%)
sodium bicarbonate
trisodium phosphate

Anyone care to offer some numbers based on your experience? I'll mix it up and test it.

Gerald C Koch · Dec 15, 2014

In order to use the percentage information from the MSDS you need to know that weight of both parts A & B. Even so there is enough vagueness in the stated amounts as to cause trouble. The purpose of an MSDS is not to give away trade secrets but safety. Hence the deliberate obfuscation. Not a simple problem.

RalphLambrecht · Dec 15, 2014

ParkerSmithPhoto said:
I am mixing the Diafine home brew recipe that's been posted here several times:

Solution A
Sodium Sulfite, 35 grams - Hydroquinone, 6 grams
Phenidone, 0.2 grams - Sodium Bisulfite, 6 grams
Water to make, 1 liter

Solution B
Sodium Sulfite, 65 grams - Sodium Metaborate, 20 grams
Water to make, 1 liter

1) Do I need to add the ingredients in the order listed and stir to dissolve? Are there any tricks like with D-23 (e.g., add a pinch of sulfite before adding the metol)?

Or,

2) While measuring, can I go ahead and make several bags of the combined recipe, all ready to mix with water? The powder comes in one can so I'm hoping this is a viable option.

Thanks!

Please stop calling it bre or soup. It's a processing chemical not something meant for human consumption.

Roger Cole · Dec 16, 2014

RalphLambrecht said:
Please stop calling it bre or soup. It's a processing chemical not something meant for human consumption.

I think "brew" is acceptable, at least to me, because it's used in so many non-food ways. For example, in ham radio when we built our own equipment from components it is, or was, referred to as a "homebrew" transmitter or receiver or whatever.

"Soup" annoys me too (and I didn't see Parker use it.) Soup is served hot, developer near room temperature (unless I suppose it's gazpacho developer or something...and the caffeinol people may try that...)

Ok, some soups are served cold but it just seems a very different thing. Why not "marinating" film in developer then? That's closer than soup.

Roger Cole · Dec 16, 2014

APUGuser19 said:
When we built our own equipment, indeed. Those were the days.

Yeah, built a few QRP transmitters and direct conversion receivers as well as accessories in my day.

Sigh.

73 de WD4IGX

jim appleyard · Dec 16, 2014

APUGuser19 said:
I just looked on ebay, and they have phenidone there. One of the listings has a picture of a little pile of the powder. It's brown. Wonder if that's right, or if he's just peddling old chemical. Pretty expensive, like 25 dollars an ounce or so. But this formula on this thread has .2 grams in a liter, I think. How in the world would you measure .2 grams on Ohaus triple beams? But I like the idea of getting the most speed and grain out of a mid-speed film.

It might be best to buy from a good supplier like Artcraft Chemicals. Great service!

ParkerSmithPhoto · Dec 16, 2014

APUGuser19 said:
I just looked on ebay, and they have phenidone there. One of the listings has a picture of a little pile of the powder. It's brown. Wonder if that's right, or if he's just peddling old chemical. Pretty expensive, like 25 dollars an ounce or so. But this formula on this thread has .2 grams in a liter, I think. How in the world would you measure .2 grams on Ohaus triple beams? But I like the idea of getting the most speed and grain out of a mid-speed film.

PhotoFormulary has everything you need. Phenidone isn't cheap but at 0.2g/L it's negligible.

You can find a jeweler's scale on Amazon for around $15 that will measure to 0.01 gram.

Gerald C Koch · Dec 16, 2014

When pure Phenidone should be a pinkish color. If it is brown then it is starting to oxidize. It will eventually turn into a tarry mess. It is not that expensive.

It should always be stored in a glass container in a cool, dry environment. The two Dimezones are more stable than the Phenidones.

RalphLambrecht · Dec 16, 2014

ParkerSmithPhoto said:
PhotoFormulary has everything you need. Phenidone isn't cheap but at 0.2g/L it's negligible.

You can find a jeweler's scale on Amazon for around $15 that will measure to 0.01 gram.

if not make a 2g/l solution and dilute it 1+9 or at 10% to compensate

doctorpepe · Oct 26, 2018

RalphLambrecht said:
if not make a 2g/l solution and dilute it 1+9 or at 10% to compensate

I don't know if this made it into the thread last night, but the Diafine MSDS lists trisodium phosphate in parts A and B. If you look up the CAS# that is associated with their MSDS, the ingredient is Sodium Hexametaphosphate, not Trisodium Phosphate. VERY different chemicals, and if one used TSP, would most likely throw way off the alkaline balance for both parts.

Dr. Kevin Pernicano
kpshrink@gmail.com

GRHazelton · Oct 26, 2018

momus said:
I'm glad to see Gerald mention Justin Wilson. I grew up watching his programs. While I would not hold too much stock in his cooking, his show was a blast to watch, as he told wonderful stories throughout the show in that great Cajun accent of his. And after he finished his cooking, at the end he would uncork a nice bottle of wine and have a big drink before chowing down.

One thing he mentioned has stuck w/ me for decades. He said "You know, a lot of people say you have to have a red wine w/ this meal, a white wine w/ that meal. Me, I buy what's on sale". My kind of guy. If you stayed up late you might even catch the Morgus the Magnificent show "Morgus Presents" if you were in the New Orleans area.

Glad to see Justin Wilson mentioned! IIRC the Galloping Gourmet used to enjoy a little sip of wine while cooking; always a good idea!

RalphLambrecht · Oct 26, 2018

ParkerSmithPhoto said:
I am mixing the Diafine home brew recipe that's been posted here several times:

Solution A
Sodium Sulfite, 35 grams - Hydroquinone, 6 grams
Phenidone, 0.2 grams - Sodium Bisulfite, 6 grams
Water to make, 1 liter

Solution B
Sodium Sulfite, 65 grams - Sodium Metaborate, 20 grams
Water to make, 1 liter

1) Do I need to add the ingredients in the order listed and stir to dissolve? Are there any tricks like with D-23 (e.g., add a pinch of sulfite before adding the metol)?

Or,

2) While measuring, can I go ahead and make several bags of the combined recipe, all ready to mix with water? The powder comes in one can so I'm hoping this is a viable option.

Thanks!

mixing in the order of shown in the order listed is typically a good idea.Phenidone is sometimes hard to dissolve in water.I dissolve it in a bit of high-concentrated alcohol and mix that into the watery mix, which dissolves easily.

Diafine home brew

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