Development time for Ilford Delta 3200 in replenished XTOL in a Jobo Processor

Whenever I reduce the development time by 10% to 15% for stock XTOL in a Jobo processor the negatives are too thin.

So what is the development time for Ilford Delta 3200 shot at ISO 3200 in replenished XTOL in a Jobo processor?

Do you pre-soak in the case of rotary processing? J Tinsley in his book "Rotary Processing " found that with all the Ilford films he used that there was no differences in the times between rotary and inversion intermittent agitation. He put this down to pre-soaking which he did, counterbalancing the effect of rotary processing

I need to add that none of his films was D3200 and he did not use Xtol as a developer. I should also add that I do use Xtol 1+1 and dump but not replenished and have not attempted an EI greater than 1250 with Xtol. If the thinness is not a one-off but occurs each time then whether or not you pre-soak it looks as if you will need to try using the intermittent inversion agitation times at least

My "gut feel" with D3200 is that if in doubt increase times. If I did try box speed I'd develop for 6400. I suspect it is easy stuff to under-develop but has a great tolerance for "over-development"

I hope others can help with actual times.

pentaxuser

I did not presoak. I have Tinsley's book, which I read, but I forgot that he said that there is no difference between inversion and rotary times, however my experience has told me that with Ilford sheet film. That being the case, what should I increase the development times for Delta 3200, shot at ISO 3200 for replenished XTOL. I cannot find any published information on Kodak's or Ilford's websites. I emailed Ilford this morning, posing the question.

Well you may be able to progress matters by contacting Ilford and I'd be interested in what it says but 1. it is a non llford developer you are using and 2. In my opinion and the opinion of others such as Les McLean the Ilford times are quite a long way out. When I first started darkroom work I dutifully followed Ilford times and found that by and large they worked for all their films except D3200 where the times were one speed out as Les McLean cited ie. expose for 1600 and develop for the time stated for 3200 and likewise expose for 3200 but develop for 6400

pentaxuser

I don’t know if this is remotely helpful, but I do normal agitation every minute, and based on this page:

https://unblinkingeye.com/Articles/Times/D3200/d3200.html

I have used Xtol (one shot) at 1:2 for 20 minutes at 75F and gotten great results at EI3200. An example in 6x7:

https://pix.xy.cx/Film/Medium-Format/i-phJCMg8/A

I use it 1+1 for 20 minutes. Why not run a test roll thru your replenished Xtol?

ericdan said:

I use it 1+1 for 20 minutes. Why not run a test roll thru your replenished Xtol?

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Unfortunately 1:1 or 1+1 does not map to replenished XTOL which is essentially stock XTOL but takes a little longer. How much longer is the question.

Rotary development ensures, that a layer of fresh developer is at the emulsion surface at all times. This should make a lot more difference for a dilute developer (think Rodinal, HC-110 at higher dilutions) than for a concentrated developer such as XTol stock. Therefore I would assume, that the 15% time reduction for rotary processing does not apply for concentrated developers, or at least not to such an extent.

If I have understood the action of replenished Xtol it largely behaves like "fresh Xtol" but better- allegedly. It is in effect stock that is renewed by replenishment. If I have got this correct and if it were I, then I'd use Xtol times for the next speed up as in the D3200 process info on the Ilford website under the film in question i.e. the D3200 film processing spec sheets. So that's 7.5 mins for film exposed at 1600;10mins for film exposed at box speed and 12.5 mins if exposed at 6400.

I concede the floor as they say if there are replenished Xtol and D3200 users out there. Let us know how it goes

pentaxuser

Why not simply buy an extra roll of d3200 and run a simple test to figure out your development time? That would be your definite answer without any guessing and taking chances.

ericdan said:

Why not simply buy an extra roll of d3200 and run a simple test to figure out your development time? That would be your definite answer without any guessing and taking chances.

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I could do that but I have found that asking the APUG-Photrio community reaches a deep pool of experience and wisdom that can provide actual experience. Some will have tried options that I would not think of.

Sirius Glass said:

I could do that but I have found that asking the APUG-Photrio community reaches a deep pool of experience and wisdom that can provide actual experience. Some will have tried options that I would not think of.

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true. at least it'll give you a better starting point.
I just found that other people swear by developer ratios and times that don't work for me at all. Must be amount of developer people use per roll of film, the agitation or thermometers that are not calibrated.
For example, all times on massive dev chart I've tried tend to be at least 30% too short for me.
I use a diffusion enlarger, maybe I need more contrasty negs than people with condensers.

ericdan said:

true. at least it'll give you a better starting point.
I just found that other people swear by developer ratios and times that don't work for me at all. Must be amount of developer people use per roll of film, the agitation or thermometers that are not calibrated.
For example, all times on massive dev chart I've tried tend to be at least 30% too short for me.
I use a diffusion enlarger, maybe I need more contrasty negs than people with condensers.

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I too use a diffusion enlarger and need more contrasty negatives. I have found too many errors in the Massive Development Chart and too many gaps in needed information.

From Kodak

Sirius Glass, a short and to the point, if not to say pointed, reply from Mr Mooney. It sounds from Mr Mooney's reply that the film takes precedence and any questions that have links to other products such as non Ilford developers still puts it in Ilford's court.

Try Ilford with the same question and see if the reply is the same except for substitution of Mr Mooney's "Ilford" for the word "Kodak" Wasn't there a last ditch manoeuvre used by B17s during World War II called "corkscrewing down" as means of getting out of a nasty situation? If Ilford is no more helpful then you are thus "corkscrewing down" but in this case to the fate of the Flying Dutchman- fated to ask a question which forever has no answer and there will be no flying home to warm East Anglian beer with the locals .

pentaxuser

I contacted Ilford before I contacted Kodak. I still have not heard from Ilford. I am leaning to +15% or +20% time for the next roll.

Sirius Glass said:

I contacted Ilford before I contacted Kodak. I still have not heard from Ilford. I am leaning to +15% or +20% time for the next roll.

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I think that will produce usable negs but my "gut feeling" is maybe double this . I look forward to your findings

pentaxuser

Sirius Glass said:

Whenever I reduce the development time by 10% to 15% for stock XTOL in a Jobo processor the negatives are too thin.

So what is the development time for Ilford Delta 3200 shot at ISO 3200 in replenished XTOL in a Jobo processor?

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I use replenished xtol in a Jobo at 24 degrees. My measured times for Delta 3200 shot at 3200 are as follows:

15:00, 0.58 average gradient
20:00, 0.76 average gradient
23:00, 0.85 average gradient

I replenish 70ml per 36 exposure film/roll of 120, and 56ml per 24 exposure film, my bottle is 1 liter.

I typically run 22 minutes as that should put me pretty close to 0.82, which is about right for a 2 stop push, 19 minutes which should put me pretty close to 0.72 for a 1 stop push, and 16 minutes to put me pretty close to 0.62 if shot at 800-1000.

YMMV

Adrian, your figures certainly lead the same way but "in spades" as they say, as my thoughts but make even my 40-50% increase look ultra-conservative but my "gut" says that your times will be closer than the D3200 rule that says use the 6400 time for 3200 which in my experience( limited with D3200) is probably conservative in itself.

I have just looked at the Ilford times for 20C, not 24C as in your case which shortens times, and even Microphen needs more time than stock Xtol

It would be interesting to talk to the Ilford R&D dept about what its findings were for its whole range of different developer times for D3200

pentaxuser

pentaxuser said:

Adrian, your figures certainly lead the same way but "in spades" as they say, as my thoughts but make even my 40-50% increase look ultra-conservative but my "gut" says that your times will be closer than the D3200 rule that says use the 6400 time for 3200 which in my experience( limited with D3200) is probably conservative in itself.

I have just looked at the Ilford times for 20C, not 24C as in your case which shortens times, and even Microphen needs more time than stock Xtol

It would be interesting to talk to the Ilford R&D dept about what its findings were for its whole range of different developer times for D3200

pentaxuser

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Yes, my experience with delta 3200 is that it’s pretty insensitive to XTOL. 15 minutes with constant agitation at 24C to get 0.58? That’s not very sensitive. Pancro 400 and streetpan are also not very sensitive, as both require times longer than 10 minutes to get reasonable contrast.

Adrian Bacon said:

I use replenished xtol in a Jobo at 24 degrees. My measured times for Delta 3200 shot at 3200 are as follows:

15:00, 0.58 average gradient
20:00, 0.76 average gradient
23:00, 0.85 average gradient

I replenish 70ml per 36 exposure film/roll of 120, and 56ml per 24 exposure film, my bottle is 1 liter.

I typically run 22 minutes as that should put me pretty close to 0.82, which is about right for a 2 stop push, 19 minutes which should put me pretty close to 0.72 for a 1 stop push, and 16 minutes to put me pretty close to 0.62 if shot at 800-1000.

YMMV

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Thank you!

Sirius Glass said:

Thank you!

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No problem, also, no pre-wet, but I do put the tank on the Jobo and run it in the bath for a few minutes beforehand just to get the outside of the tank reasonably close to processing temperature.

I process a lot of film for other people, so have been building a replenished xtol development time spreadsheet for Jobo processing for as many films as I can get my hands on, so if you need replenished xtol times for a Jobo at 24 for any other films, just ask. I’ve probably got at least a couple measurements.

I’d share it with massive dev chart, but they don’t have a good way to indicate replenishment and rotary processing, and my fear is that it’ll get published and people will be confused.

Just goes to show that if you wait for a few days someone on Photrio, in this case Adrian, has had actual experience of the process and film you are using and there is nothing like well documented and detailed experience to draw on.

pentaxuser

An answer from technical@harmantechnology.com

Good afternoon Steve,
As you've already spotted, we have no supported time for that film combination - so all I can do is give a best guess a time. It will be a time based on times for ISO speeds that we have supported and given times for. (The reason we have no time for your combination is because we always strive to quote only dev times for combinations that meet certain contrast and speed target values. If they don't meet them, it doesn't mean a film will end up with unacceptable results for customers - but you'll appreciate, we are simply wanting to only quote ones that we know will give optimum images).

I'd guide advise you the film in xtol stock at only 75F (21.11C) - and give it 5 minutes.

(We would normally say it needs 7 mins at 20C. But additionally, in rotary processors - it needs 15% taking off any quoted time - so it would end up needing around 6 - 61/2 mins.
So at the hotter temperature of 70F (21.11C) that you are wanting to use, I'm anticipating it to need approx 1-2 minutes less. Plus 15% less for Jobo tank processing. Hence a guess time at around 5 mins).
I wouldn't advise doing it at 75F - purely as the dev time is starting to get quite short, and thats less ideal in terms of getting evenly developed/good images.

If might be worth doing a clip test if your film is really precious - ie cut off a few frames ad initially only process those. At least then you have a chance to amend the time for the film remainder if you need to.
I hope you get some acceptable results.
Kind regards,
sue evans





What is the developing time for Delta 3200 120 roll film shot at ISO 3200 in replenished XTOL in a Jobo processor at 70 degrees F and 75 degrees F?

Steve Xxxxx


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Well the Ilford reply has left me scratching my head, given the massive gulf between Adrian's times and Ilford times. At such differences they have to be irreconcilable, surely? Ilford times vis a vis other developers suggest that its experience with Xtol is that it is particularly effective in terms of times needed compared to most other developers and yet Adrian's, mine, Les McLean etc suggest that D3200 is a film with a lot of development latitude. Even at EI 1250 and 1+1 I found J Hicks time on Unblinkingeye to be a little on the short side and that is 17.5 mins at 20C .

When you do give it a go, please give us your results. Maybe try 5 mins as suggested by Ilford on a clip of film just to get that monkey off your back.

pentaxuser