Development streaks along 35mm neg sprocket holes

xisbrat · Jan 9, 2009

I have a very strange symptom occurring intermittently when developing 35mm film, and wondering if this group can provide some ideas on what the problem might be.

I develop two rolls of film (Kodak TMY400) at a time, using steel reels in an inversion tank. One roll of film comes out fine, and the other roll has (what looks like light) streaks along both edges of the film, emanating from the four corners of the sprocket holes. In many of the frames, the streaks extend into the image, and on the image it looks like stalagmites and stalactites encroaching towards the middle of the frame.

This occurs along the entire length of the roll, from frame 1 to frame 24.
The image itself appears fine: good density, contrast, etc.

I used D76 1:1, kodafix solution, and agitate 5 inversions every 30 seconds.

I fill the tank to the top, so the problem is not insufficient solution. For the most recent occurrence, the roll at the bottom of the tank shows the symptoms; the roll at the top turned out fine.

I am suspecting a light leak in the camera, but cannot understand where the leak could be occurring from.

Any ideas? Thanks in advance for your comments.

Mark Antony · Jan 9, 2009

Looks like pressure marks, was the film re-wound in the wrong direction? This sometimes happens with left handed people I've found they sometimes re-wind against the arrow direction and this can cause stress marks.
Mark

mpirie · Jan 9, 2009

Hi,

I would suggest letting the group know what camera was used. Someone may have experienced it before, and it certainly looks like fogging.

Development will only produce density where there has been exposure to light, so i don't think it's your processing that's to blame.

Because of the regularity of the fogging, it looks as though the light is either refracting internally at the pressure plate or getting fogged near the sprocket drive.

I've seen similar fogging when a bright source is placed at the edge of the frame, and the light was intense enough to "bleed" outside the shutter frame and into the rebate. Yours doesn't show any of that.

Does the fogging appear in the areas not exposed during a shoot? IE, on the leader or tail?

Mike

Anscojohn · Jan 9, 2009

I'm with Marcus Antonious (g). It lookss to me like a mechanical cause. Did I read someplace long ago that physical pressure can make the halides more developable?

Mark Antony · Jan 9, 2009

Anscojohn, yes kodak did lots of tests 'straining' ag to make it more developable. I have seen this thousands of times as a Lab owner. Like I said it can be caused by winding in the wrong direction (opposite of the arrow) and also by some tongue extractors like the Noritsu which automatically winds the film to catch it in between metal tongues.
If we had a 'tight' film we'd normally open it in the dark-bag and load it in a cassette, I trained my staff to write 'possible pressure marks' on the bags if films were tight (you can feel this by turning the spool) and you would often find it was from re-winding backwards.
They are called pressure marks and can sometimes happen on 120 film as 'half moon' marks, you can test this by taking an unexposed piece of film and folding it in the dark, loading in the tank and processing-same marks.
Mark

jordanstarr · Jan 9, 2009

Is it getting into the frame at all? If not, you might want to consider letting it go. I replaced the seals on one of my cameras a long time ago and it has a bit of exposure on the very edges, but it's really not worth stressing about if it's not on the actual photo.

gainer · Jan 9, 2009

You can see the effects of pressure if you write on a piece of unexposed film in total darkness with a stylus, such as a nutpick, and then develop it. Many years ago, Kodak produced an Autographic camera using, of course, paper backed roll film, that had a window in the back that could be opened so that a message could be written with a supplied metal stylus on the outside of the backing paper. When the film was developed and printed, the message appeared in white on the print, black on the negative.

pentaxuser · Jan 9, 2009

xisbrat said:
I develop two rolls of film (Kodak TMY400) at a time, using steel reels in an inversion tank. One roll of film comes out fine, and the other roll has (what looks like light) streaks along both edges of the film, emanating from the four corners of the sprocket holes.

This occurs along the entire length of the roll, from frame 1 to frame 24.
The image itself appears fine: good density, contrast, etc.

I used D76 1:1, kodafix solution, and agitate 5 inversions every 30 seconds.

I fill the tank to the top, so the problem is not insufficient solution. For the most recent occurrence, the roll at the bottom of the tank shows the symptoms; the roll at the top turned out fine.

I am suspecting a light leak in the camera, but cannot understand where the leak could be occurring from.

Any ideas? Thanks in advance for your comments.

How many times has this happened? Presumably everything was once OK and now isn't? Has anything changed about your processing since it happened?

If one roll is OK but not the other then a light leak in the camera sounds unlikely or maybe the two rolls come from different cameras?

Likewise if you took the frames then can you say for definite that there was no reverse winding in the wrong direction involved as Mark Anthony has suggested. Again it seems unlikely that you'd have tried to rewind one roll correctly but not another.

I cannot offer any explanation but I am just pointing why we need to re-examine whether some of the reasons given are in line with the facts as you have given them to us.

Remote diagnosis is always difficult unfortunately

pentaxuser

chriscrawfordphoto · Jan 9, 2009

I've had it happen too. It happened a lot for a while then went away. I don't know what caused it. It wasn't my camera, happened with different bodies. I thought at first it was outdated film, because it happened first with outdated Tmax 3200, but it has since happened with fresh tmax3200 and some 400 films. I have been processing film since I was 15, and NEVER saw this until 2 years ago. It has only happened once in the last 6 months. I have no idea why. Agitation has been consistant.

David A. Goldfarb · Jan 9, 2009

Alessandro Serrao said:
Bromide drag?

Causes: insufficient agitation or tank filled to the brim providing insufficent empty space for the chemicals to agitate.

Yup. That's what it looks like, but the pattern is a little odd. Normally the streaks are at somewhat of an angle, rather than straight up and down like these. 5 inversions every 30 seconds during development should be sufficient, but maybe you need a little more air space at the top of the tank to agitate effectively.

archphoto · Jan 9, 2009

Sorry guys, but friction-marks should occur BETWEEN the sprocket-holes and not where he sprocket does not touch.
Rewinding-problems: when you rewind the film the sprocket is disengaged.

The problem must with your way of developing your film.
If you use a closed tank, I would, agitate it by turning it up-side-down and back again, not just side-ways.

And as said above: don't fill the tank to the top.

Peter

xisbrat · Jan 9, 2009

Rewind maybe? if I could only remember

Thanks very much for all the responses and the great ideas. I think Mark and John may have hit the nail on the head: rewind in the wrong direction. But I'm not even a lefty (maybe in mind only).

The embarrassing part is I don't recall 100% what direction I rewind the film crank, even though the arrow is right there! I have a sneaky suspicion that I sometimes don't even think about the direction, and turn the crank clockwise, which is opposite from the arrow. If that is true, would that explain the marks?

As to another question: yes, the effect of the mark reaches into the image, so that at the top and bottom of the frame you will see slivers of light reaching toward the middle. They only enter about 10% into the frame, but it destroys the sky scenes.

I did think it was agitation at first too, but I do 5 full inversions (bottom to top and back, with a twist) every 30 seconds. And I also thought it may have to do with insufficient developer in the tank, so when inserting developer I make sure I see some small pool of liquid in the opening of the lid when the tank is flat

If the rewind is the cause, I would be extremely happy, even though I'm also feeling a bit silly right now.

Thanks again
Tennis

archphoto · Jan 9, 2009

Let us know how things turn-out, if your troubles are over now.....
Thanks,
Peter

David A. Goldfarb · Jan 9, 2009

xisbrat said:
And I also thought it may have to do with insufficient developer in the tank, so when inserting developer I make sure I see some small pool of liquid in the opening of the lid when the tank is flat

It may be too much developer in the tank, rather than too little. If you don't leave some airspace, or if the reels don't have a little space to move in the tank, then you might not be getting enough flow when you agitate, and that's what can cause "bromide drag."

Anscojohn · Jan 9, 2009

David A. Goldfarb said:
It may be too much developer in the tank, rather than too little. If you don't leave some airspace, or if the reels don't have a little space to move in the tank, then you might not be getting enough flow when you agitate, and that's what can cause "bromide drag."

******
Would not bromide drag be seen as an area of less density on the neg?

Too much agitation with 35mm can cause coursing of developer through the sprocket holes and overdevelop areas in the frame; but if the agitation style is constant, it should appear in every roll, not true?

In the absence of convincing evidence to the contrary, I opt for either pressure marks, or gremlins.

David A. Goldfarb · Jan 9, 2009

Usually it's a kind of streakiness around the sprocket holes. If it's happening in the bottom reel and not the top, I'm thinking too much solution in the tank is preventing the liquid from moving around enough in the bottom.

Nicholas Lindan · Jan 10, 2009

xisbrat said:
If the rewind is the cause, I would be extremely happy, even though I'm also feeling a bit silly right now.

If you have some old outdated rolls then try loading them and back re-winding half of them - if the same marks appear only on the backwound rolls then the cause has most likely been found.

No reason to feel silly, significant discoveries can only be made by accident.

George Collier · Jan 10, 2009

I have solved agitation issues in the past by filling enough to cover the reels, plus a safety factor. Put the reels in the tank, no film. Fill with water till you have a comfortable amount over the top reel, but no more than you need (the addition of film will increase the displacement slightly). Then pour this out into the same graduate you use to measure developer. Use that much next time.

xisbrat · Jan 11, 2009

Looks like a bad rewind

Hi everyone,
All great tips, and much appreciated.
I shot a quick roll of XP2 just to see if I sense any differences when I rewind. It felt sufficiently different that I think that's what I must have done....rewound in the wrong direction for the rolls that showed those symptoms. I'm going to go with this conclusion unless the symptoms appear again, and I'll be sure to resurrect this thread if it does. BTW the shots came out just fine.
Thanks Mark and John!
Tennis

Mark Antony · Jan 11, 2009

You're welcome.
In my 20+ years as a lab owner I've seen this fault loads of times. Your films show the classic symptoms of being wound inside out. It can't be a processing fault as faults aren't that regular, and I've seen it on dip and dunk, roller transport and tank handlines.
Back in the 1980's I had a client who was also having this problem, we were sure it wasn't the processor (Fuji FP 250) and he was sure it must be us. I asked for the help of Brian Drage Agfa engineer who explained what happens when you re-wind backwards.
We were able to purposely generate the fault by winding backwards, in fact we asked the client to re wind in front of us and could see he was winding against the arrow and was left handed.
He never had the fault again.
Incidentally I was told that Kodak films can sometimes make a fold line at the end frame as they are attached by tape, but I've not seen that.
Mark

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