Development problem, I'm confused

Travis Nunn · Aug 13, 2006

On three of the last four rolls I've developed, I've had a problem that I've never had before (I've been developing film for several years now). The problem is there will be several areas on the roll of film that will be very slightly fogged it seems. There will be a definite line across a few frames (it goes all the way from one side of the film to the other) where 1/4 of the frame has a little more exposure. What confuses me is that it was exposures 6,7,8 on one roll, 2,3 on another and 3,4,5,6 on the third. The fogging is exactly the same width on all three rolls and the "fogging" does not extend past the end of the frame and they are all in consecutive frames.

What really confuses me is this has happened on film shot with two different cameras (Mamiya 645 1000s and Mamiya RB67) and the film was developed in two different tanks, one with a plastic reel/tank and two with SS reels/tank. The one in the plastic tank was developed a week earlier than the two in the SS tank. One of the rolls was Delta 400 and the two other rolls were Fuji Neopan ACROS, both 120 film.

I always load/unload my film shaded from the sun and the rolls go straight into film cannisters.

I've attached a scan of one of the negatives. Any ideas?

Paul Sorensen · Aug 13, 2006

Wow. I was going to suggest some things, such as radiation, a leaky camera, loosely rolled film, but your description seems to have ruled out anything I can think of. Good luck!

David A. Goldfarb · Aug 13, 2006

I think I like the leaky camera back explanation. It's strange that it would happen with two different cameras, but not impossible. The streaks in the example are one frame apart, so that suggests it's in the camera back. This kind of leak is likely to be intermittent, because the ambient light conditions and time between frames are variable. If you're indoors and shooting many frames quickly, there might be no streaks, but outdoors in full sun where you're shooting one frame every half hour or more, you might have stronger light leaks.

Tom Stanworth · Aug 13, 2006

I cannot think of anything but what David has said - a real coincidence with light leaks in two cameras.

To put your mind at ease, you could process a blank roll of film to show you that it is not happening during processing and then try exposing the loaded cameras to varying light levels and making notes which can be compared to the processed frames. I have some 5x4 DDS that leaked only in very bright sun. I also had a paterson orbital processor with an almost invisible hairline crack which fogged film in a streak across only one frame. Before I found the crack I solved the problem by keeping the processor in dim light whilst setting up and switching the light off whilst the bulk of development took place before fixing. I then found and superglue the crack. Now perfect.

With such perfect spacing the fault above certainly look like a film back. A crack in a processing tank would not leave patterns related to the exposed frame area.

JHannon · Aug 13, 2006

My Mamiya M645 does something similar to that at the edge of each frame. More like a density band. Happens only at certain shutter speeds. In my case it is shutter bounce or the focal plane shutter sticking at the end of the travel.

In your case, the band is not quite at the edge. It seems too precise a band to be light leak to me. The puzzling thing is it is happening to two cameras.

Ed Sukach · Aug 13, 2006

Question: Are you using the same magazine in both cameras?

When a "band of increased density" extends beyond the frame into the margin of the film (where the frame numbering is) - and when it happens, it is consistently in the same position, and sharply defined, it would - strongly - indicate some sort of light leak.

I am not familiar with Mamiya magazines ... but if they are interchangeable, and the film is protected when off the camera by a dark slide, the band very well my increase in intensity when the magazine is on the camera with the dark slide removed, allowing more time for the light leak exposure.

I would load the magazine, place it on the camera, and remove the dark slide, leaving the camera in bright light for various times to determine if there was a correlation between time and the "banding".

Check the interfacing surfaces between the camera magazine seating surface and the magazine itself, for burrs, or dings, or foreign material. Also, there is the possibility of degraded or worn magazine light seals.

photomc · Aug 13, 2006

One way to rule out the camera back would be to take a roll of unexposed film and process it. No "fog", then on to the first camera back. Get a fresh (ie not a roll you currently have on hand) roll of film and run it through one camera, process, etc. You get the idea, then the other camera. I could be that somehow the film was fogged, or is getting fogged when you load the reels...any GraLab timers around that glow in the dark? There is an answer, just finding it might not be so easy...Good luck and let us know what you find.

Monophoto · Aug 13, 2006

Both cameras use roll film. One of the problems with roll film is that if it is not wound tightly enough on the takeup spool, it is possible to get intermittent light leaks around the end of the spool and under the backing paper. Could this be the problem?

Torus34 · Aug 13, 2006

From the thumbnails:

The darkening does extend past the frame -- in fact, it extends to the edge of the film.

First, rule out tank defects by a careful examination.

There then remain two possibilities. Either the cameras have light leaks or the rolls were mis-handled at some point. Distinguishing between the two causes can be difficult, as there are two rigs involved and you might have used the same back on both rigs. If the darkening occurs on the 'top' edge on one roll and the 'bottom' edge on another roll from the same camera, mis-handling is probably the culprit.

ricksplace · Aug 13, 2006

Hi Travis.

I had the EXACT same results with a Mamiya rb67 back I use on my Century Graphic. In my case, it was a light leak. It was intermittent too and looked the same as your results. I replaced the light seals, et voila!, problem solved.

I bought a kit from interslice and did the repair myself. I have done five 35mm's, and two medium format backs and still have lots of the kit left. The kit was less than $20 including shipping. It comes with instructions too.

I also got the same problem when the back was not attached to the camera properly. The sliders on the graphlock back on the Century had to be adjusted a little for the rb67 back to fit. The first time I used it, they were too loose, and I got a light leak. I don't know how the back fits on a real rb67, but if it is possible to attach the back with a little too much play, you might get light leaks.

Rick.

photomc · Aug 13, 2006

Good advice so far, what I do not understand is the 645 (1000S) does not have a changeable back, and the insert being a different size would not fit the RZ. So, I really lean to it being a problem in the darkroom or post exposure, as one post mentioned film not wound tight. Of course both cameras could have developed light leaks, but that would be just plain 'Bad Luck' and not very funny at all.

Travis Nunn · Aug 13, 2006

Thanks for all of the input. Like Mike above said, the 1000s and the RB67 don't have interchangable backs, the 1000s has a film insert so if the cameras have developed light leaks, they've done it at the same time. I'm going to have to do some testing it looks like.

Where is a good place in the states that I can send the backs to have the light seals replaced?

photomc · Aug 13, 2006

t_nunn said:
I always load/unload my film shaded from the sun and the rolls go straight into film cannisters.

Travis, missed this the first time...just to verify, do you remove the exposed film and go into the film cannisters or seal the tab at the end and then place the film in the cannisters? Not sure it would make much difference, but with the film snug and sealed not likely to let any light in, but if there is a small crack in the film cannister or it is not sealing completely...OK, just thinking out loud. You will figure it out, I just don't think it is both cameras is all...but stranger things have happened.

pentaxuser · Aug 13, 2006

The other fact as best as I can determine it from the thumbnails is that in the rebate the streaks seem to get lighter in each frame. I have no idea whether this eliminates or makes more likely any of the possible causes mentioned.

I have had similar problems with an Agfa Isolette on occasions and I am pretty sure it was down to loose winding. It wasn't a light leak in the back as the camera had a 40 yr old film in it when I got it and it processed perfectly.

If both cameras and tanks have behaved perfectly in the past then for both sets of each to develop faults at the same time seems an incredible coincidence.

Best of luck

pentaxuser

Travis Nunn · Aug 13, 2006

photomc said:
Travis, missed this the first time...just to verify, do you remove the exposed film and go into the film cannisters or seal the tab at the end and then place the film in the cannisters? Not sure it would make much difference, but with the film snug and sealed not likely to let any light in, but if there is a small crack in the film cannister or it is not sealing completely...OK, just thinking out loud. You will figure it out, I just don't think it is both cameras is all...but stranger things have happened.

Yes, I do seal the rolls with the little sticky tab. I take the roll out of the film back with my back turned to the sun so strong sunlight never gets to it. The film cannisters I use are the ones that JandC sells.

I'm going to shoot a roll indoors and see what turns out. After that, regardless of how the indoor test turns out, I'm going to replace the seals on the film backs (I got them used so I might as well). I shot 3 rolls of film yesterday, 2 Fuji and 1 Ilford. Both of the Fuji rolls had this problem and they were both run through the same back. The Ilford roll was run through a different back and it came out perfectly. That could possibly explain the RB67 problem, but not the 645.

As for the 645, I bought it a few years ago from ebay and it isn't in very good shape. I've had intermittent problems with it before (not like this, though) so it I'm sure it needs a good CLA.

MattKing · Aug 13, 2006

Did you use the same film cannister for each of the two films?

If the fogging is identical, then I would look to find the common element.

I note that the fogging is more evident at one edge of the film then at the other.

I would carefully check the cannister(s).

Matt

David A. Goldfarb · Aug 13, 2006

I doubt it's an issue with the film canisters or rolling of the film. If it was, the leaks would be at the end of the roll, not at the beginning and in the middle.

MattKing · Aug 13, 2006

David A. Goldfarb said:
I doubt it's an issue with the film canisters or rolling of the film. If it was, the leaks would be at the end of the roll, not at the beginning and in the middle.

I was wondering if there might be a hole in the cap or the base of the cannister - if so, the light leaking into the cannister might be quite directional, and might affect one end of the film more than the other.

It would probablh have to coincide with loose backing paper and high levels of directional light as well.

David A. Goldfarb · Aug 13, 2006

Yeah, but it would have to be REALLY loose for 2 and 3 to be lightstruck or 6 and 7, without the later frames being totally black just from being out of the camera.

Travis Nunn · Aug 13, 2006

I don't think its the cannisters. They are just an added layer of protection I added, they aren't really even necessary. Besides, once in the cannisters they go into either my pocket or into the camera bag.

photomc · Aug 13, 2006

Would agree Travis, since you tested more rolls and one back is suspect and the other not. As to the fact the RB and 645 both failed, well that is what I call just plan old bad luck. Sounds like you have found at least one cause anyway. Just wondering who repairs these now and is it cheaper to just pick up another used back (of course one never know there do they ). The earlier post was more a stab in the dark, because I could not believe two different cameras (formats) would fail at the same time. Though your comments makes it a bit easier to understand.

Travis Nunn · Aug 13, 2006

You're right Mike, I think it is just plain old bad luck. I dev'd a roll of unexposed film tonight and it came out perfectly clear so I think I'm looking at either replacing the light seals on the one RB67 back or just getting a new one. I've never had to replace seals on anything before so I don't know if its something I could do or how much it would cost if have to send it out to be repaired.

As for the 645, well, I think I'll just look for a replacement body. The intermittent issues I've had over the last few years have been a point of frustration for me so this gives me the excuse to get a new one.

David A. Goldfarb · Aug 13, 2006

Light seals are a really easy fix, if you've got foam seals. You can get replacement foam from www.micro-tools.com, if you want to do it yourself. If you prefer to send it out, it's routine maintenance. Better to have it done and get a general CLA at the same time than to replace the back or body with another one that will probably need the same routine maintenance.

ricksplace · Aug 14, 2006

The seals are really easy to do. I mentioned Interslice It will take you about 45 minutes to change the seals on an rb67 back. Anyone can do it. Just follow the instructions that come with the kit.

http://cgi.ebay.ca/The-Finest-Compl...ryZ30027QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

I don't know this guy. I bought his product and was really impressed with his service and the quality of the materials. He emailed me and asked what kind of camera I was repairing. He then emailed me (FREE!) extensive pdf files of pictures and procedures for replaceing the seals in that camera (Mamiya 1000 DTL). After I did the seals on the 1000 DTL, I did the seals on a few other 35mm's before I did the seals on my rb67 back. If I can do it, anyone can.

Travis Nunn · Aug 14, 2006

Excellent! Thanks David and Rick. I think I should be able to handle replacing the seals myself.

Development problem, I'm confused

Travis Nunn

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