Developing your own film, a must?

airgunr · Dec 17, 2006

I will start by introducing myself. I am new to this forum. I've been shooting 35mm since the early 70's. I've only seriously been "into" photography since about 2000 when I purchased my Nikon F5. I had a Canon AE-1 before that. I sold the AE-1 and bought a FM2n for lens compatability. Anyway, I've been getting more and more interested in Large Format.

My question is: "Does everyone develop and print their own negatives/slides/prints?"

I ask because as I inidicated I am interested in taking the step of getting a Large Format camera but most everything I am reading indicated that you develop your own film. I am not into that nor do I have the inclination to setup and maintain a darkroom. I would much prefer to send my work off to a good lab and have them do that part of it.

Does that attitude offend or make me less suited to this type of photography? Should I still consider the addition of a decent field camera like a Wista or something similar? I don't think I want a monorail setup as I would like to be able to carry it into the field and on some of my travels.

I will be interested in any feedback. Thanks!

grahamp · Dec 17, 2006

I think the real question is: what do you do with your film now? 5x4 processing has much the same issues as 35mm. The equipment is slightly different, but that is about it.

If you are doing colour, and you have not been processing your own, I wouldn't plan on it. But do check out the cost of processing before you make any major decisions.

Monochrome can be sent out, but it is cheaper and simple enough to do at home - a large changing bag, daylight processing tank, 3 solutions, and the kitchen sink.

It doesn't sound like you are a wet darkroom person - so either you use a computer for prints or you send the work out.

I am also a little curious about why you want a 5x4. Unless you make really large prints (20x16+ as a minimum), you can get much the same quality from roll-film. The 5x4 scores when you need the movements, but loses out in terms of portability, speed of lenses, and cost of film per frame.

fpjohn · Dec 17, 2006

Hello:

Doing your own developing and printing is not essential and some do and some do not. Doing it yourself does give a greater understanding of process and more control both technical and creative.I t can also be cheaper as well as satisfying.

yours
Frank

Lopaka · Dec 17, 2006

Welcome to APUG!

You don't say whether you shoot B&W, color or both. Either way, sheet film pretty much needs a custom lab, but that has the potential to provide high quality, particularly if the lab is close enough and small enough to allow you to build some kind of a relationship and dialogue with those that print your work.

Doing it yourself is not essential to enjoying photography or achieving great results. But spending some time printing your own work can do more to educate you about shooting than almost anything else you can do - just a thought. To each his own.

A good lightweight field camera would be the best option - monorails are heavy and very bulky to travel with.

Bob

Justin Cormack · Dec 17, 2006

If you shoot black and white I would do it yourself - its not hard you dont need a darkroom or much equipment. And its fun, and you will probably get the results you want more easily than getting a lab to do it. Colour requires much more precision, and (especially for slide film) you will probably want to use a lab by the sounds of it.

Kirk Gittings · Dec 17, 2006

If you can, you should do it yourself. Film developing is a vital part of the Magic of LF. Having said that there are times when I get seriously far behind with no way of catching up and need a good lab. It is really hard to find a good b&w lab that is clean, accurate and dependable, but I have found Praus (an advertiser here) to be excellent including + and - developents, which are crucial to me and must be done accurately. They are first class professionals that understand the needs of serious LF photographers.

bob01721 · Dec 17, 2006

I've been playing with 4x5 for a coupla years now and have been meaning to get into developing, but just never got around to it. One of these days I will!

Meanwhile, I've been shooting Polaroid Type 55 B/W film. This film gives both a positive print and a negative. (I should say "or" a negative, since the exposure is different for each.) It's not a very fast film, so it has its limitations.

Michael Kadillak · Dec 17, 2006

Kirk Gittings said:
If you can, you should do it yourself. Film developing is a vital part of the Magic of LF.

I completely agree with Kirk.

LF is a commitment to excellence both from a technical and esthetic perspective. I have no problem with color materials being sent to a lab. E6 or C41 is really not economical even if you wanted to do it.

However, with B&W being able to find a custom lab that is consistent with developing your prized negatives is difficult. When you own the process you control these variables and the results speak for themselves. I have found T Max 100 is a very sensitive film to temp and agitation whereas T Max 400 and FP4 are much more "forgiving". All you really need is a bathroom, a set of trays and some thin nitrile gloves.

Before I would make the 4x5 camera purchase, I would find the labs on your area and see if you have someone that you could work with (and count on) to perform this critical step for you and whom you can rely upon to develop N-, N and N+ negatives. Ask a lot of questions and the answers will inherently be a go - no go decision.

Good Luck and hope it works out. More sheet film buyers are a very good thing.

Cheers!

avandesande · Dec 17, 2006

Even if you find a good lab you will be stuck with D76 and time + temperature.
You learn a lot about shooting by doing your own darkroom stuff.
Just curious but you seem to already have your mind made up. Why the question?

JBrunner · Dec 17, 2006

For me, for B&W, not deleloping my own film would be giving up a substantial amount of control over a vital part of the process. You don't say what you do with your negatives after you have them, but in any case, a "darkroom" is only needed for printing. To develop your own 4x5 all you need is a dark bag or light tight room, a tank(like a combiplan), a kitty litter tray(new) or some such for tempering, and chems, and a few other odds and ends. Its easy, and everything stores in the kitty tray when not in use. You will pay for the stuff by the time you have processed one box of film. After that, you are incredibly cost effective, literally dimes instead of dollars. With PMK I spend about 10 cents a sheet. If I mixed my own developer, that would drop even further, but I'm more photographer than chemist.

Nobody will do a better job of developing your own film, than you.

TheFlyingCamera · Dec 17, 2006

You haven't said WHY you're considering LF. That is a vital consideration. Don't get into it if you don't need the benefits and you can't deal with the compromises. It requires a LOT of discipline to work with to get the best results. If you learn that discipline, you'll get results beyond what you expected. If not, you'll find yourself constantly frustrated.

Charles Webb · Dec 17, 2006

airgunr; Does that attitude offend or make me less suited to this type of photography? Should I still consider the addition of a decent field camera like a Wista or something similar? I don't think I want a monorail setup as I would like to be able to carry it into the field and on some of my travels. I will be interested in any feedback. Thanks![/quote said:
Hi there,
I believe your attitude is quite acceptable, and how ever you want to make pictures is also just fine.

The drawback of using an outside lab or even a custom lab is simply you are giving up much of the control of how your images are finished. Using a custom lab can work for you, but is very expensive to do the simple things
you can do yourself in your own dark room. The main reason I keep and do dark room work is I want total controll of my images from exposure to
the finished image. Since I know how I want it to look I do it myself.

Find yourself a 4x5 or larger box, buy a book or two along with some film and
give it a try. A high priced camera is totally unnecessary, a good lens is totally necessary. Enjoy yourself learning a new task.

Charlie.................................

Monophoto · Dec 18, 2006

Charles -

There are a number of examples of very successful photographers who do not do their own processing. And some of them use LF.

But my guess is that the most LF photographers, and especially those who do it for artistic reasons, do prefer to do their own processing because that extends their control over that last step in the process of producing a final image.

BBarlow690 · Dec 18, 2006

I work too hard to make black and white negatives to entrust them to anyone else, so I can't imagine letting anyone else develop them. I don't use color, so I don't worry about color labs.

Then, I don't think anybody could print my pictures to my satisfaction, so I print B&W. Others are saved from my curmudgeonliness, and the world stays a better place than it might be if I farmed stuff out.

bruce terry · Dec 18, 2006

airgunr- Welcome. Sending roll-film (mono I assume) negs to a very reliable, high quality developing lab is fine if you don't have the inclination or the space to do it. All you do with rolls is develop to 'standard' anyway so, given a good lab, no big deal if cost isn't an issue.

But like others, I wonder, with your disinclination, why you want to bypass MF and suffer the difficulties of cumbersome LF - where hard-won, big, single, sheets of film SCREAM for you to personally develop them - include them in the creative process.

I don't like developing film either but nevertheless abandoned 35mm/MF for 8x10 LF mono contacts in the late 90's. Ever since - unhappily - I've developed my negs in trays in a taped-up bathroom, knowing a real darkroom would not make me any happier. Always wished I could farm-out the big undeveloped negatives but besides cost and risk, was certain I'd lose all the good Karma. So my bathroom is My Cross. Will it be your's?

Bruce

Post Script Confession: I'm gradually slipping back into 35mm and custom-lab neg development, concentrating on the image and only the image. I have HCB's permission.

Gerald Koch · Dec 18, 2006

I would suggest that you do it yourself because custom labs are becoming fewer and fewer every year. By the time you get a particular lab familiar in how you like things it may be out of business.

airgunr · Dec 19, 2006

Thank you one and all for your informative and helpful responses. I will try to answer some of your questions and observations. :^D

grahamp:
I think the real question is: what do you do with your film now? I am also a little curious about why you want a 5x4.

I mostly shoot slide film Velvia 50 or 100. I send it off to A&I in California as I live in a rural area of SE Wisconsin and there are not any good labs relatively close to me.

I've been intrigued by LF for awhile. I really like the concept of the Tilt and Swings. I have been using a Nikon 85mm Tilt/Shift Macro lens and would like to explore the capablilites more.

I enjoy landscape as well as macro photography. I am strictly an amatuer, I've never sold any photos (given a few away to friends who have admired some of my work) and mostly do it for my own enjoyment.

After trying to read up on the subject it seems that for what I am interested in the 5x4 would be the most suitable to landscape and field photography for me. I have been fortuante enough to travel fairly extensively and a 5x4 Field looks like it may be a good choice for that as well. While I think it would be enjoyable to try to learn and work with a 8x10 it seem it may be too large for my purposes.

I like the thougt of a good monorail as they seem to be much more versitle but I am trying to be somewhat pragmatic on just where to dive into this area.... LOL

bob01721:
I've been shooting Polaroid Type 55 B/W film.

This could be an interesting option. Is there an equivelent in color?

JBrunner:
You don't say what you do with your negatives after you have them

For the few that I think turn out decent... I have a Nikon Coolscan 5000ED film scanner and I use that to digitize them. I would assume I would have to purchase a quality flatbed scanner if I did make the leap into LF. I have a Epson R800 printer for printing.

TheFlyingCamera:
You haven't said WHY you're considering LF.

I guess it's because it does seem like a challenge and requires a more deliberate pace and thought into making your photo. I like the idea of that as well as the control over your exposure, DOF, etc. and quality you can achieve with larger negatives.

Charles Webb:
Enjoy yourself learning a new task

I think you have hit upon a large part of my interest. I enjoy learning new things and this seem to me to be worthwhile one to attempt.

bruce terry:
But like others, I wonder, with your disinclination, why you want to bypass MF and suffer the difficulties of cumbersome LF - where hard-won, big, single, sheets of film SCREAM for you to personally develop them - include them in the creative process.

Precisely because it does take that effort to achieve them I think.

You may also be right that that SCREAMING will be hard to ignore and I will change my attitude and want to take that next step into developement.

I don't enjoy the computer part of digitizing prints and working on them in Photoshop (which I am still struggling to learn....). The part I do enjoy is the actual process of making the photos and being out in the field trying to get them. I also enjoy the challenge of learing someting new and difficult.

I hope that addresses some of your queries. I truely appreciate your input and suggestions.

Thank you.

Bill Slater

Alex Hawley · Dec 19, 2006

airgunr said:
bob01721:
I've been shooting Polaroid Type 55 B/W film.

This could be an interesting option. Is there an equivelent in color?

Welcome aboard Bill. You're getting lots of great advice here from some pretty accomplished folks.

No, there's not a color companion for Polaroid Type 55. All of the color Polaroid films are positive only-no negatives or multiple prints.

Type 55 certainly saves having a darkroom for film processing. But, how do you make the prints? You would have to send the negatives to someone else for printing. That is, unless you live with just the one 4x5 Polaroid print. I'm quite fond of Type 55 myself, but I wouldn't be happy with just the Polaroid prints. There is very little that can be done with them other than varying the overall exposure. However, the Type 55 negs can give wonderful prints on conventional paper.

David Henderson · Dec 20, 2006

I use a lab to process my film and make my prints. I regard this as a successful decision though inevitably there are some "buts".

First it is sadly by no means easy to find a first class lab (or rather a first class person within a lab) to do the work. Even rarer to find someone prepared to support a desire to experiment with different processes, papers etc which I felt was necessary before settling to a style.

Second, just because you get someone to do all this for you doesn't mean you should just leave it to them to make all the decisions. You have to learn enough to communicate exactly what you want to a printer and know whether what you're asking for is possible. As a slide user ( as am I) you're used to the "product " being determined behind the camera. But despite all your efforts to hand over a neg/contact that's just right, there's still a lot of decisions to be made and I might argue that unless you're participating in those, well is the print really "yours"? I have a growing library of books on b&w printing in particular to help me do this.

I'm lucky in that the printer I use is driving distance from me, so we get to meet, I get the opportunity if I want it to brief him face to face and test understanding. He normally will go through prints with me face to face and where necessary to explain why things look as they do. I'm not sure I could expect the same results if it was all done remotely.

palewin · Dec 20, 2006

Based on your clarifications (answers to previously posted questions) your desire to use a lab for development is probably "normal." By this I mean that the majority of B&W LF photographers do their own developing, but color is a different animal. A fairly large component of LF photographers are moving into a "hybrid workflow" where they use film for image capture and then scan the developed negatives and produce their prints digitally - exactly what you seem to have in mind. I suggest you look at www.butzi.net where Paul Butzi has several articles on this type of workflow. Since you said you enjoy the image capture part of the experience the most, you may well fall in love with LF for landscapes, and the Wista you mention is an excellent camera for that type of work. The only disadvantage of the Wista is bellows extension, which limits you to lenses of about 240mm or less, but that happens to be the range where most landscape photography is done.

JBrunner · Dec 20, 2006

palewin said:
Based on your clarifications (answers to previously posted questions) your desire to use a lab for development is probably "normal." By this I mean that the majority of B&W LF photographers do their own developing, but color is a different animal. A fairly large component of LF photographers are moving into a "hybrid workflow" where they use film for image capture and then scan the developed negatives and produce their prints digitally - exactly what you seem to have in mind. I suggest you look at www.butzi.net where Paul Butzi has several articles on this type of workflow. Since you said you enjoy the image capture part of the experience the most, you may well fall in love with LF for landscapes, and the Wista you mention is an excellent camera for that type of work. The only disadvantage of the Wista is bellows extension, which limits you to lenses of about 240mm or less, but that happens to be the range where most landscape photography is done.

Color is indeed a different animal, and when I shoot E-6 or neg, I too send it out, and much of the LF printing done in color is a hybrid workflow, lightjet etc. A wealth of information regarding hybrid workflow can be found at http://www.hybridphoto.com which is the proper forum to discuss such things.

You should also take note of naturephoto's work, and check out Robert Teague, as they are both very versed in your area of interest.

Most B&W LFrs remain firmly ensconced in the hallowed and magical room of darkness, and most of the advice here comes from that crowd, me included.

Dan's45 · Dec 21, 2006

i won't hurt to process yourself...if nothing else...you'll be suprised to how it be can be. but hey, not everyone likes to smell like pickles...as my wife says it smells like.but my thoughts are that this is part of the big fun of shooting...the reward you get from your shots is having some control over them. not what the machine the lab does them. also, this will save you some change in the long run..some labs will charge whether your negs show a picture or not...which is why doing it yourself is somewhat prudent. this way you know exactly what your getting back...what you send in. just my two cents. best of luck on your decision!

Soeren · Dec 22, 2006

Airgunr
My situation right now is, I'm shooting (though not much ) 24X36 and 6X7.
Im shooting color and B&W. I don't have a real darkroom nor an enlarger. I have a bathroom in which I can develop B&W but not print.
I shoot B&W because I anticipate getting a full equiped darkroom sometime in the future and Ill have the negs to work with then. I shoot color slides and negs and have them processed at a pro lab. I then use 24X36 slide in a projector and I have the negs printed by the prolab.
I am looking and saving for a 5X7" camera. So what will I use that for.
B&W. large negs for contactprinting alternative processes such as POP and Argyrotype.
Color. A fairly cheap scanner e.g. Epson 4990 will give you enough quality of your scans from either negs or slides to make a difference. From these you can have prints made.
Why LF. My reason to want a LF camera is the larger negs for contacts for which I don't need a real darkroom. The possibility to make colorprints "the other way" is an added bonus.
Offcource movements and control of process is another reason.
The downside is the higher cost per frame in development
(In DK dev of one 4X5" slide cost the same as a roll of 35mm or 120film)
This may be encountered for by a higher rate of Q-shots.
In my current situation I expect to turn more shots into finished images since Ill probably make only one or two shots per session and get them developed straight away. POP contacts don't require a true darkroom so printing sessions wont be as time consuming as conventional B&W (for me that is)
I like analog but sometime one must make compromises and get the best out of the possible.
Cheers
Søren

gr82bart · Dec 22, 2006

airgunr said:
My question is: "Does everyone develop and print their own negatives/slides/prints?"

No/No/Mostly no. It's easier for me to have a lab do all of the above.

Regards, Art.

airgunr · Dec 22, 2006

Again thanks for the responses and the web addresses (I am logging into them as I type this).

It seems I would not be shunned if I did not do my own developing. ;^D Although it is highly recommended, especially if I venture into B&W film. I can understand the arguments for doing this and I may decide to get into it once I have a better mastery of the LF camera it'self.

Now the the hard part. Getting one past my wife....... I can sneak new lenses in as my pile is large enough that she doesn't notice a new one. A LF camera is another matter! There will have to be some conjoling and possibly a few pairs of new shoes or the like for her. Possibly a vacation to some exotic location!?! LOL

Thanks again for all your help. Wish me luck!

Merry Christmas to all!

Developing your own film, a must?

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