Developing tanks for 16mm movie film options?

awty · Jan 7, 2021

Hi
Is there any options apart from the Lomo UPB-1A tanks?
Thought there would of been other brands that made them, cant even find any good DIY options.
If that's all there is then I will have to bite the bullet and get one from Russia, there expensive to buy and import.
Thanks

jvo · Jan 7, 2021

check with the film photography project, the may have some ideas.

awty · Jan 7, 2021

michael_r said:
Jobo has a new Expert tank for 16mm. Probably expensive though.

Ha, makes the Lomo's look to be a bargain. Dont know how they can justify that price.
I like the tube concept, wonder if theres a way of making something myself....hmmm.

Bronson Dugnutt · Jan 7, 2021

I acquired a Morse G3 recently, but have about 40ft of film left to expose before I attempt developing it. Folks seem to dislike them, so they aren't absurdly expensive.

The model I have (B2201) has adjustable reels for 35mm & 16mm films. There exist models that handle 8mm, 16mm, and 35mm out of the box, but I think the B2201 could be adapted fairly easily to handle 8mm.

AgX · Jan 7, 2021

In the 60's and 70's Jobo introduced cine-film processing tanks. For 16mm tanks for 10m, 20m and 30m each were available. Good luck finding one in Australia...

I rather would built such myself.

Kino · Jan 8, 2021

There are many of DIY cine film developing articles in photographic magazines and books of the 30's onward to the 60's based on the rack system.

A bit of digging and well crafted search engine queries should turn up these articles...

Jonno85uk · Jan 8, 2021

Have you got a clean bucket?

awty · Jan 8, 2021

AgX said:
In the 60's and 70's Jobo introduced cine-film processing tanks. For 16mm tanks for 10m, 20m and 30m each were available. Good luck finding one in Australia...

I rather would built such myself.

I haven't been able to find and types of tanks from major manufacturers apart from the Lomo and Morse.
Often people who find these things don't know what they are and just get thrown out, but weird things can turn up on the market place and it helps to know what you looking for just incase.

awty · Jan 8, 2021

Bronson Dugnutt said:
I acquired a Morse G3 recently, but have about 40ft of film left to expose before I attempt developing it. Folks seem to dislike them, so they aren't absurdly expensive.

The model I have (B2201) has adjustable reels for 35mm & 16mm films. There exist models that handle 8mm, 16mm, and 35mm out of the box, but I think the B2201 could be adapted fairly easily to handle 8mm.

I'll be interested in your results. I've always loved cinema photography, but have no experience, be fun to have a try.

awty · Jan 8, 2021

Jonno85uk said:
Have you got a clean bucket?

I think I want a higher degree of control.....but it is an option.

awty · Jan 8, 2021

Kino said:
There are many of DIY cine film developing articles in photographic magazines and books of the 30's onward to the 60's based on the rack system.

A bit of digging and well crafted search engine queries should turn up these articles...

Im still digging, can't find anything that gives satisfactory results and or requires a gallon of chemicals.

Kino · Jan 8, 2021

awty said:
Im still digging, can't find anything that gives satisfactory results and or requires a gallon of chemicals.

Yes, well welcome to the reality of processing motion picture film.
You need a lot of chemistry, water, equipment and space to properly process motion picture film.
It's just that simple.

Here's a relatively small home built processing machine...

awty · Jan 8, 2021

Bronson Dugnutt said:
I acquired a Morse G3 recently, but have about 40ft of film left to expose before I attempt developing it. Folks seem to dislike them, so they aren't absurdly expensive.

The model I have (B2201) has adjustable reels for 35mm & 16mm films. There exist models that handle 8mm, 16mm, and 35mm out of the box, but I think the B2201 could be adapted fairly easily to handle 8mm.

Whats the dislike about them apart from the winding? They seem to be easier to load than the Lomos. Cost difference isnt much for me as postage from the US is extraordinarily expensive now.. How much chemestry is needed to cover the film for process?

awty · Jan 8, 2021

Kino said:
Yes, well welcome to the reality of processing motion picture film.
You need a lot of chemistry, water, equipment and space to properly process motion picture film.
It's just that simple.

Here's a relatively small home built processing machine...

Thats very very clever
Ive got some old projectors I could re work.....hmmm.

Costs are a factor in anything, it pays to ask around to work out your options. Im in the process of building a new darkroom and work space, will be working in both film photography and analog sound, why not you only live once..

awty · Jan 9, 2021

A good overview for DIY processing for future reference.

http://www.filmlabs.org/docs/toboldlygo.pdf

Jonno85uk · Jan 9, 2021

awty said:
Whats the dislike about them apart from the winding? They seem to be easier to load than the Lomos. Cost difference isnt much for me as postage from the US is extraordinarily expensive now.. How much chemestry is needed to cover the film for process?

A while ago I looked into it as I wanted to get into 16mm. A lot of people have issues with the Morses and ending up with uneven development over the entire reel. This is because the time the emulsion is in contact with the chems varies due to varying cranking speed. Additionally, people don't like them because of the amount of hand-cranking, especially for the re-expose step for reversal. There was another negative that I fail to remember. The general consensus I got was to use a Lomo or make your own version.

Does seem like the morse is a prime-candidate for modification with electronics to remove the need for hand-cranking.

AgX · Jan 9, 2021

There are motorized versions of the Morse tanks and similar ones. The problem is that during one run the wind speed gradually changes. What woule be compensated by the return-run. In general, the longer the processing time the more even results I expect.

Jonno85uk · Jan 9, 2021

I never came across those for sale whilst searching for a solution. Always a few G3s in the USA and 50ft Lomos from Ukraine.
I wonder if people are clinging onto those just like with the 100ft Lomos.

Kino · Jan 9, 2021

In the early 1910's or so in the USA, a company called Steinman (sp?) make a series of dip and dunk spiral tanks for 35mm that could process around 200 feet of film at a time.

There were three tanks that nested inside one another for storage but the innermost tank was roughly the size of the processing reel with some space for agitation.

The processing "reel" was a series of chrome plated metal spokes, radiating out from the center and terminating in a band of rod stock, forming what could be described as a half-reel. The reel had a continuous spiral of thin steel spot welded to the radial spokes that wound out to the edge of the tank with just enough space between the windings for several thicknesses of film. This spiral was at right angles to the spokes and was roughly the depth of the space from the edge of the 35mm film to the top of the perforation, laying outside of the image area.

The film was loaded by placing the reel on a very large film "rewind" and the loader had to guide the film onto the spiral as the reel was rotated and it wound off the camera core. Since most cine films of this era were Ortho, this could be done under a safelight.

Once the reel was loaded, it could be dipped and dunked through developer, stop and fix baths before being washed and spooled up over a long drying rack (imagine two large, bicycle-like spoke wheels with wooden slats bolted across their faces and supported on each end so it could rotate).

The only problem with this system is you had to be extra careful of how you agitated the film to avoid perforation surge marks across the frame. The reel had to be gently lifted and slightly rotated as it was agitated up and down.

I have a photo of it somewhere I can dig out if anyone is interested...

awty · Jan 9, 2021

Jonno85uk said:
A while ago I looked into it as I wanted to get into 16mm. A lot of people have issues with the Morses and ending up with uneven development over the entire reel. This is because the time the emulsion is in contact with the chems varies due to varying cranking speed. Additionally, people don't like them because of the amount of hand-cranking, especially for the re-expose step for reversal. There was another negative that I fail to remember. The general consensus I got was to use a Lomo or make your own version.

Does seem like the morse is a prime-candidate for modification with electronics to remove the need for hand-cranking.

I wonder if you could modify an old reel to reel tape recorder to run the spindles. This one takes 5" reels and spindle is 5.25" apart. If you could slow the forwards and rewind it would only be a mater of switching from one to the other or rig up an auto switch if you are really clever.

Actually you would only need to run a belt from each reel spindle. Maybe DC model would be easier to slow down.

Kino · Jan 9, 2021

awty said:
I wonder if you could modify an old reel to reel tape recorder to run the spindles. This one takes 5" reels and spindle is 5.25" apart. If you could slow the forwards and rewind it would only be a mater of switching from one to the other or rig up an auto switch if you are really clever.

View attachment 263403 View attachment 263404

Actually you would only need to run a belt from each reel spindle. Maybe DC model would be easier to slow down.

How big is your developer tank? Just do some rudimentary math; How long does a single frame have to be in the developer?

You have 4,000 frames to process in 100 feet.

A roll of film on a machine this size would take about two days to process 100' of film with standard gamma developers.

The smallest practical 16mm film developing machine is about the size of a large refrigerator (laid on it's side) and runs at 16 feet per minute.

http://www.microfilm.com/equipment-item/minilabmaster-plus-minilabmaster-dual-strand-processor/

If you are really serious, start haunting surplus equipment auctions and checking with companies that used to process microfilm and you might chance into one of these...

Kino · Jan 9, 2021

Here; check this out...
http://mononoawarefilm.com/community-workshops

Kino · Jan 9, 2021

michael_r said:
I don’t know, Awty, the more posts I read in this thread the more I think you might want to consider building something like the Jobo...

I think the Jobo tank can process 33 feet and is really designed to process Dual 8mm, otherwise you'd have to split the film into 3 sections.

NOTE: I am NOT trying to discourage anyone, but you have to have realistic expectations when starting out. Nothing like spinning your wheels and blowing a ton of money when the basics are immutable and must be taken into account!

awty · Jan 9, 2021

Sorry, need to explain better. I was just thinking of making it a little more easier to wind using a motor pulley system.
If you run direct from spindle to spindle you have the left reel going clock wise on rewind and the right spindle going anti clockwise in forwards. Only one motor running in direction at a time. But it will be too fast. You could use a second pulley as in the next picture this can be made to size to get correct speed, like the way a belt drive record player works.
The third option is to connect one to rewind and one to the capstan on play side of reel to reel, which still runs too fast at 1.5'/ sec, but would be easier to slow down with a pulley wheel.

Actually can't see it being much of a change to make my own morse style tank which I can then easily perfect the pulley system.
Same can be done with drill type motor or something else.
A morse tank would cost me $300 to import and a Lomo $350 that is to get one in good condition.

Kino · Jan 9, 2021

awty said:
Sorry, need to explain better. I was just thinking of making it a little more easier to wind using a motor pulley system.
If you run direct from spindle to spindle you have the left reel going clock wise on rewind and the right spindle going anti clockwise in forwards. Only one motor running in direction at a time. But it will be too fast. You could use a second pulley as in the next picture this can be made to size to get correct speed, like the way a belt drive record player works.
The third option is to connect one to rewind and one to the capstan on play side of reel to reel, which still runs too fast at 1.5'/ sec, but would be easier to slow down with a pulley wheel.
View attachment 263416

Actually can't see it being much of a change to make my own morse style tank which I can then easily perfect the pulley system.
Same can be done with drill type motor or something else.
A morse tank would cost me $300 to import and a Lomo $350 that is to get one in good condition.

Sounds like a good Ardnio or Raspberry Pi project with steppers motors!

You can salvage these motors from old laser printers and such...
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=salvaging+stepper+motors

Developing tanks for 16mm movie film options?

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