Developing problems

Jarvman · Oct 19, 2009

I've recently started using XTOL to develop my films shot at gigs. The first time I used it the results were great, this was 1:1. I haven't used any for 2 weeks or so now, having stored the rest of the stock solution in a 5 litre container. I developed 3 more films last night for exactly the same way but the negs are pretty underdeveloped. I thought it was an issue of underexposure at first but comparing the numbers on both batches of film the newer ones are definitely not full black whereas the first ones are. I'm not sure what I'm doing wrong here. Surely the stock solution should keep for more than 2 weeks. This is the only dev that I don't use straight from the container, otherwise its fresh HC-110 or Pyro every time. Am I forgoing consistency by using progressively aging XTOL stock solution? :confused:

markbarendt · Oct 19, 2009

I actually use replenished Xtol and the stock is several months old. This has been very consistent and dependable.

Denis K · Oct 19, 2009

I can only beg you not to start another one of these threads without you doing some more research. You have plenty of developer in your 5L to do so. When you get those results, then report back.

Denis K

Jarvman · Oct 19, 2009

Ok, I've done a bit of research that suggests to store the stuff upto the brim, ideally in litre glass bottles. My plastic container is larger than 5l with a pretty lousy fitting cap. It's possible that the stuff has gone off in the space of time I've had it. I'm not going to sacrifice any more films in it Denis. Maybe its time to try Ilfotec DD-X instead.

fschifano · Oct 19, 2009

Well, that is possible and because I've always thought that might be the case, I've never stored stock XTOL quite that casually. What has worked, and worked well, for me has been to use 1L plastic soda bottles. Now, I know that some will tout the benefits of using glass bottles, but I have had no problems using the plastic soda bottles at all. I use 5 1L bottles. When mixing a fresh batch, 4 of the bottles are filled to the brim, and the last is only partially full. I use that one first. The remainder keeps well. I usually use up the 5L in less than 6 months, but there have been a couple of times when I've had the developer slightly longer and it was still working as well as when it was new.

Jarvman · Oct 19, 2009

Yeah, I really can't understand why such a marked difference in two weeks when I'm doing everything the same. Even under those less than ideal conditions. It was perhaps warmer last time, freshly mixed and allowed to sit to reach room temp. I've never used the stuff before but a quick googling shows that there's a fair bit of troubleshooting with it. Maybe I should stick with the liquid concentrates but the DD-X is relatively pricey in comparison.

Anon Ymous · Oct 19, 2009

Jarvman said:
... It was perhaps warmer last time, freshly mixed and allowed to sit to reach room temp...

Do you mean that you mixed it with hot water?

Jarvman · Oct 19, 2009

Anon Ymous said:
Do you mean that you mixed it with hot water?

yeah warm tap water to dissolve it, but it wasn't warm when I used it but compared with last night probably fractionally.

wclark5179 · Oct 19, 2009

Yes, I was going to suggest checking the temp.

Already, here in Minnesota, we've had snow, I have to take the working stock solution and warm it up!

Anon Ymous · Oct 19, 2009

If the water felt warm, that would be above 36C. The instructions say that you should mix it with at most 30C, 18 to 30 to be precise. I can't be sure if it's the main reason (the container should be better), but I wouldn't dare doing as you did.

Jarvman · Oct 19, 2009

Hmm, looks like I'm being too reckless as usual

fschifano · Oct 20, 2009

Warm tap water, eh. Now there is something to that. Warm tap water often can pick up quite a bit of iron and that could be the problem. I've read that developers will react with the iron in the water similar to the way they react with the silver halides in film. I always use clean, filtered, COLD tap water that I heat to the proper temperature in a stainless steel pan. Never had a problem that way, and have never used warm tap water. XTOL itself, if mixed correctly, is very stable.

markbarendt · Oct 20, 2009

Did you measure the temp of the Xtol each time you used it?

clayne · Oct 20, 2009

Chances are the warm developer solution accelerated your initial development after mixing it. Now that it's cooled down to normal temperature you're finding resultant underdevelopment because you need to either adjust your time and/or technique for 20C.

I HIGHLY DOUBT THE DEVELOPER IS BAD.

(Said with emphasis as people are already getting paranoid about it)

Rick A · Oct 21, 2009

Do you check the temps of your chems EVERY time you use them? You should, and check your temps with a time/temp chart for proper developing time. Temps varying by a couple of degrees can drastically alter the time needed for proper development. I always try towork at 20c(68f) with my developer. The other chems should be within a couple of degrees, but developer temps are critical. Invest in an accurate thermometer, and use it. Temps for paper development arent as critical, but film IS.

Rick

Jarvman · Oct 21, 2009

I agree that temperature has got to be the most possible factor here. No I don't tend check the temp of my chems. Will have to make a habit of doing so. I usually just leave them 10-15mins to reach room temp. Maybe that's not long enough. In any case, the time stated for fully developing tri-x pushed to 1600 is 13mins, which means the second batch of films should have been fully developed and the first batch should have been overdeveloped. Perhaps the dev was colder than 20 degrees when mixed up the second time. I'll keep an eye on things from now on. Where will I find a time temp graph? Cheers

clayne · Oct 21, 2009

celsius: new_time = old_time * exp(0.081 * (20 - cur_temp))

jeroldharter · Oct 22, 2009

Jarvman said:
I agree that temperature has got to be the most possible factor here. No I don't tend check the temp of my chems. Will have to make a habit of doing so. I usually just leave them 10-15mins to reach room temp. Maybe that's not long enough. In any case, the time stated for fully developing tri-x pushed to 1600 is 13mins, which means the second batch of films should have been fully developed and the first batch should have been overdeveloped. Perhaps the dev was colder than 20 degrees when mixed up the second time. I'll keep an eye on things from now on. Where will I find a time temp graph? Cheers

Jarvman,

You have only four variables:

Dilution
Time
Temperature
Agitation

If you don't control all of them, you will have inconsistent results. Try to settle on a standard temperature and use a waterbath to stabilize temps before starting.

For a basic setup, use a tub of water with a Pyrex measure of microwaved hot water and some re-usable ice packets to quickly equalize the temp to your standard. Then let the developer and setup rest in the water until equilibrated.

Martin Aislabie · Oct 22, 2009

Jarvman said:
Where will I find a time temp graph? Cheers

Temperature is a critical characteristic in film development.

If you want consistency, you need to control the Developer temperature.

I measure the stock Dev temp first and then adjust the Dilution Water to give me a diluted Dev+Water mix close to the target temp (20C)

I then fine tune the Dilute Dev temp by running either a hot or cold water stream round the measuring cylinder.

Adjusting the temp of the Dilution Water is slow to begin with but you quickly get faster as you improve your technique.

Time/Temp chart for XTol is in the Data Sheet - http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j109/j109.pdf

Martin

Developing problems

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