developing negs only ... what do i need?

bessa_L_R3a said:

Are CC's the same as mL's? Can you tell I basically failed chemistry in high school AND in college? (I was good at bio, though)

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Yes, they are! It's the fundamental principle of the metric system: one mL of water equals one cubic centimetre equals one gram.

bessa_L_R3a said:

But now that I think about it, it's more important that I get the developer solution correct instead of trying to figure out what the exact proportions have to be for the tank ...

So my tank is 650 mL, right?

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Yep. If you want to go easy on maths, instead of calculating how much developer you need for exactly 650mL of soup, just calculate up the closest round volume (e.g. 700mL) and throw away what you don't need.

In case the HC110 fractions mystify you, it might help to understand that when they were prepared, Kodak had US ounces and quarts in mind.

Dilution B is based on 1 to 31 - in other words 1 ounce syrup plus 31 ounces water gives 1 quart (32 ounces) of HC110 working solution in dilution B.

If you read the instructions on the bottle (we are talking in North America here) you have to remember that Kodak assumed that people wouldn't want to have to work with small quantities of the fairly viscous syrup, so they direct you to first dilute the whole bottle (16 ounces) into a larger container (two quarts, or 64 ounces) to make a stock solution, and then to further dilute that stock solution for use.

If you do a lot of developing, that works fine, but as the stock solution doesn't last as long as the syrup (which seems to last nearly forever) most people here don't do it that way.

As to re-using HC110, that only works if you use replenishment, and you would only do that if you developed a lot of film, and on a very regular basis.

Using HC110 "one-shot" instead of re-using it is just a better idea for most people, and it is not at all expensive.

Have fun. Hope this helps.

Matt

bessa_L_R3a said:

I ended up getting an AP, not for any particular reason, sorry about not getting Patterson, Xia_Ke

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My understanding is that AP tanks are pretty much clones of earlier model Paterson tanks. I've got reels of both brands, and they're almost identical, aside from being made from different plastics.

But now that I think about it, it's more important that I get the developer solution correct instead of trying to figure out what the exact proportions have to be for the tank ...

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The proportion will be the same no matter what the tank capacity, but of course you'll use a different amount of concentrate to make the same proportion for different final volumes.

I did buy an accordian style storage bottle that says QT on it, so I'm guessing that is 1 QT.

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You might want to ditch that bottle. The problem is that it's probably made from HDPE (#2 recycling symbol) plastic, which is rather permeable to air. This characteristic eliminates the advantage of being able to remove extra air from the bottle. It's better to use PET (#1 recycling symbol) plastic or glass bottles -- at least, that's the conventional wisdom.

If someone can tell me how to calculate the Dilution B for that amount, then I think I'll be ok.

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I'm afraid I'm not an HC-110 user, but it sounds to me from the discussion that Kodak's instructions say to dilute from the concentrate to get a stock solution and then dilute that further for a working solution. My own inclination would be to dilute straight from concentrate to working solution; that'll eliminate the need to keep a stock solution, which will be more susceptible to spoilage than the concentrate. Upon skimming the page, the Covington Innovations HC-110 page has a couple of tables (mid-way, under the "Dilution Guidelines" heading) giving the quantities to do this for various dilutions and tank capacities.

Note that a useful tool for measuring small quantities of highly concentrated developers is a syringe. You can buy needle-less syringes (legally, at least where I live, in Rhode Island) in drug stores. These are intended for measuring medicines for infants, but they work fine for measuring Rodinal, PC-Glycol, and other highly concentrated solutions.

SRS, many thanks for the info on the accordian bottle limitations. I will definitely think about glass. It's incredible how even a choice of container can evolve into a discussion about the merits of type.

Matt King, your explanation of dilution helped me understand it all even better AND to contextualize everyone else's input in terms of dilution. I think we can finally put the dilution B calculation debate to bed. Now, if I can only remember why it had to be B .... was that because of film type?

Now, ON TO FIXER!!!! YAY!!

This is much easier, right? The "nut case" at the store basically thrust Ilford Rapid Fixer into my hand, so that's going to be my first ever fixer. The label says 1 + 4, if I'm not mistaken, so this means for every one part of fixer concentrate I mix in 4 parts water? So I can make a working solution of that and this is re-usable? If it is re-usable, how many times can I re-use it? And I shouldn't put it back into the remainder working solution, right?

I'm very excited about all this ... negatives I can call my own! I can smell the stop bath already! oh wait, I'm using water for that.

bessa:

Dilution B is historically the most frequently used dilution for HC110. It is an excellent place to start, and many users of HC110 are more than happy to stay with it.

I happen to have a bottle of Ilford Rapid fixer handy, and there is an instruction sheet on the side.

You are right - 1 + 4 means mix one part concentrate with 4 parts water, to make your working solution. You can reuse the working solution, but you should keep it in its own container.

The instructions give information about capacity and storage life.

They indicate that the capacity of the Ilford rapid fixer is 24 36 exposure rolls of 35mm film per litre of Ilford Rapid fixer. You may ask whether that means a liter of concentrate, or a litre of working solution. A quick check of the fact sheet on the Ilford website clarifies that - it is 24 rolls per litre of working solution. If you mix up 600 ml of working solution, you would expect it to fix about 60% (0.60 x 24 = 14 rolls) of that.

FYI - one 36 exposure roll of 35mm is approximately the same as one roll of 120 which is approximately the same as one 8"x10" sheet of film.

Here is the link to the appropriate fact sheet:

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2006130218312091.pdf

Besides considering the capacity recommendations, you should also be aware of the keeping behavior of the chemistry. There is information about that as well both on the instruction sheet, and the fact sheet.

The fact sheet describes two types of tests you can perform on fixer. The clearing time test is simple and checks to see if your working solution has lost too much activity while being stored. There is also a test for silver concentration, but that is more related to paper, than film.

It is probably best to make up the working solution in an amount that is just a little more than the volume required in your tank. Than use the tests recommended in the fact sheet for testing clearing time to check the fixer regularly. When the clearing time gets too long, or the capacity recommended on the instruction/fact sheet is reached (whichever happens first) it is time to discard the working solution.

By the way, if you should start to do printing as well, it is best not to use fixer that has already been used for film as fixer for your paper.

Again, have fun!

Matt

P.S. When I made my earlier post about mixing HC110, it reminded me of an old memory. When my father helped me set up my first darkroom, amongst a number of other things he bought/found for me were a number of heavy, glass 64 oz (two US quart) bottles, with excellent lids. I used those bottles for years.

A nice digital thermometer?

MattKing said:

By the way, if you should start to do printing as well, it is best not to use fixer that has already been used for film as fixer for your paper.

Again, have fun!

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Matt, once again, thanks for the generous explanations. Tonight I'm going to mix my HC 110 working solution and Ilford Rapid Fixer working solutions. I can't develop yet because I don't have a good thermometer. I bought a basal temp thermometer at the pharmacy thinking it would go as low as 68 F or 20 C but apparently it's only really good for testing my fertility cycle ... and I'm a guy, so that's even less helpful.

Anyway, can you recommend a great digital thermometer I should buy online?

note: I'm not printing paper yet because I'm trying to get my money's worth out of the coolscan and the epson, both of which I love. Hope that doesn't make me too much of a traitor on these forums.

bessa_L_R3a said:

Anyway, can you recommend a great digital thermometer I should buy online?

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Since Adorama is nearby, I would just grab Dead Link Removed and spend the $70+ you'd save over a digital to buy more film and chemicals

Aaron

bessa_L_R3a said:

Matt, once again, thanks for the generous explanations. Tonight I'm going to mix my HC 110 working solution and Ilford Rapid Fixer working solutions. I can't develop yet because I don't have a good thermometer.

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Do not mix your working solution until you intend to develop film. The more dilute a developer is, the quicker it goes bad. Since the working solution is used one-shot (in most cases for home B&W darkrooms), mixing it before you're ready to process film is just a way to create problems. That said, the useful life of working solutions varies a lot. I don't happen to know how long common HC-110 dilution working solutions would last, in practice. You might be able to get away with keeping it for a few days, but why? It takes about two minutes to mix a working solution, even including the time to wash up, so doing so when you start a developing session won't slow you down much.

srs5694 said:

It takes about two minutes to mix a working solution, even including the time to wash up, so doing so when you start a developing session won't slow you down much.

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Ok, point taken. I'll wait. Thanks.

But I can mix fixer beforehand, right?

Kia_Ke, thanks for the link to adorama!

bessa_L_R3a said:

Ok, point taken. I'll wait. Thanks.

But I can mix fixer beforehand, right?

Kia_Ke, thanks for the link to adorama!

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Yes, for sure mix your fixer before hand. Shake it up again before you use it.

The Kodak thermometer Matt recommended is good, I use one just like it, order it if you can't find it local. If you want to go ahead while you are waiting for it to arrive, go down to an aquarium store and get a thermometer for tropical fish. The fish are about as sensitive to temperature as film. Then when the Kodak one arrives you can check it and see how accurate they are to each other, and wonder which one's right. (hint: if its only a degree, it doesn't matter, just be consistant)

PE mentioned on another thread something worth repeating here. A syringe will give you accurate measurements. A 50cc syringe is a couple of bucks at the drug store and you don't need the needle. Really good for measuring HC110 concentrate and other liquids.

How to keep temp constant?

richard ide said:

Really good for measuring HC110 concentrate and other liquids.

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Yeah, I have considered buying that kind of syringe ... For now I'm just going to pour the syrup into a beaker up to the 1 oz mark and eyeball it!

TEMP: Ok, I finally found a thermometer that doesn't measure fertility cycles and has a below freezing to above boiling range. It's a Tea Steeping and Brewing thermometer with a nice long probe and a digital head, from Bed Bath and Beyond. I can set any temp in C or F and it will adjust itself in real time until target temp is met 68F ... And afterwards I can brew a cup of Earl Grey with a hint of Developer ...

But on a serious note, I noticed that the readout on the digital display basically goes up or down according to the change in water temp(duh). I tested it with hot water from kitchen sink and watched as the temp gradually went lower and lower.

Once my liquid bath hits 68F, how do I keep it there? Or the larger the bath tray the longer it will stay at 68F? Or maybe I should set my thermostat in the apt. to 68?

BTW, 68F is NOT very warm at all!

I never worry about maintaining the temp. My household room temp is usually about 70 and the tank time is generally so short with dil. B that I just go with my initial reading. Not sure if that's a good or bad approach to take but, I've never had any problems.

Just start your process when everything is at sixty eight. Unless your house is friggin cold the water bath will hold long enough to get you through the developing cycle, but really, if you start at 69 and finish at 68, no big deal. Just be consistent about it. Or start at 70 and finish at 68. Try to start at or above 68 though because developer activity can take a rather precipitous drop below the high sixties. Just be consistent, each time you develop.

I agree with JBrunner, but I'll add this: If your room temperature (and therefore temperature of stuff you've stored in bottles) is consistently something other than 68F/20C, consider using your room temperature as your standard developing temperature. You'll need to adjust the times you get from Web sites or data sheets, but that's not very hard. The advantage is that you won't have to mess with water baths or other temperature-adjustment methods.

consistency ... got it.

last question before i finally start mixing ...

i just stuck my finger in a sample water solution and the thermo reads 66 and it is not even warm. i would say it's actually cool. is the temp right? when i set my apt. thermostat to 68, things get warm!

bessa_L_R3a said:

consistency ... got it.

last question before i finally start mixing ...

i just stuck my finger in a sample water solution and the thermo reads 66 and it is not even warm. i would say it's actually cool. is the temp right? when i set my apt. thermostat to 68, things get warm!

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You run about 99, so 68 feels about not warm, not cold, but then again, its all perception. hot to you may be tepid to me.

My girfriend thinks boiling water is a nice warm shower.

68 degree water will feel cooler than 68 degree air, mostly because water takes heat away from your skin much faster than air does. For me 68 degree liquids feel almost but not quite cold. I can tell 68 degrees by touch pretty accurately, but I always use a thermometer anyway.

Jason just threw me off with all that talk of "cooking" the negatives in his video, which I took too literally ..

avoiding cross contamination

Hi,

I've started mixing ... got my HC 110 DIL B!!! It's a lot less colorful than I had imagined ... Very light yellowish, like water with a dash of lemon ...

Can I wash out my measuring jugs, etc with water and use them to make the fixer solution or should I use dedicated measuring containers and stirrers for different chems?

Wash thoroughly, but go ahead.

I always go developer, stop (if you are using it) then fix, to help prevent accidents that I might regret.

Matt

bessa_L_R3a said:

Hi,

I've started mixing ... got my HC 110 DIL B!!! It's a lot less colorful than I had imagined ... Very light yellowish, like water with a dash of lemon ...

Can I wash out my measuring jugs, etc with water and use them to make the fixer solution or should I use dedicated measuring containers and stirrers for different chems?

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I reuse mine all the time. Just make sure they are well rinsed out.

Wow. This feels like watching a test flight.

JBrunner said:

Wow. This feels like watching a test flight.

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LOL... I can feel the anticipation. Wasn't that long ago I was freaking out about getting ready to do my first roll. Still get the tingle with every roll I pull out of the tank. I hope that feeling doesn't go away

srs5694 said:

You might want to ditch that bottle. The problem is that it's probably made from HDPE (#2 recycling symbol) plastic, which is rather permeable to air.

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I can totally confirm this!!! I just finished mixing my fixer and my dev and I squashed up the accordian containers before screwing on the caps (getting a nice whiff of chem in the process) and stuck them in the bathroom. 20 minutes later, they are back to their original size! What a rip off!!!

i am moving from bathroom back to bedroom, to APUG, back to bathroom, back to bedroom, mixing, I'm like a mad scientist.

Can't expect much from my first roll ever ... expecting total failure!! (That way if it works I'll be pleasantly surprised)

OK, it's off to the changing bag!! Like Homer Simpson in the opening credits!