Developing marks

[marco.taje]

Hi.

Does anyone of you have any clues about what is causing those marks on the right edge?
They appear on the negative, this is a 10 cm wet enlargement.

Camera is a Hasselblad 501CM, Neopan 400 film, Paterson system 4 tank with inversion agitation method, Rodinal 1+50, 11 minutes @ 20 C, Rollei stop bath and fixer (fresh).
Didn't do any tracking with the Blad backs, but those marks seem to be there quite all the times, even though they go unnoticed on other backgrounds..

Thanks for the help

 

[Ian Grant]

Those look like air bubbles where the film sits in the reel, they can be quite difficult to dislodge.

Ian

 

[srs5694]

What sort of tank are you using, and how much developer? My thought is that you might need to increase the developer volume to ensure complete coverage, particularly if the tank is leaking slightly or if the developer is forming a foam at its top surface. Alternatively, if the tank is leaking badly, you might need to repair or replace it.

 

[marco.taje]

The tank is a Paterson system 4 with the manufacturer specified volume of solutions, i.e. 500ml. That was also my first thought, so I checked and the solution seems to cover up the reel nicely, so that doesn't seem to be the main factor.
Most of you suggested a bubbles problem, which might indeed be. Although I'm used to tapping the tank firmly 3-4 times AFTER each agitation cycle, it looks like that isn't enough to dislodge those bubbles close to the reel. Do you think that tapping BEFORE the first cycle would help? I mean, my sequence is:
- pour developer & start timing;
- close cap;
- 30 secs agitation;
- tap the tank;
- wait one minute (that is the 1:30 mark);
- 10 secs agitation;
- tap the tank

... and so on.

Or maybe presoaking is the only valid choice? I might get into that anyway, you know..

Thanks for your prompt answers, they're priceless, as usual.
M

 

[Rick A]

I always add just a dab more liquid than called for. If you have any LFN you canadd a drop or two(no more than) in your developer to break up bubbles. I always presoak for at least two minutes prior to developing which seems to help prevent bubbles from sticking.

 

[jerry lebens]

It looks like air bubbles, but it could also be poor agitation technique or, worse still, traces of fix remaining on your spiral. So, it might be worth looking at your agitation technique and checking that your spirals are scrupulously clean and dry prior to use.

I always presoak the film. Prior to development, I prepare plentiful supply of water at 20C and use this for presoaking, mixing up the dev and, finally, to put into the tank after fixing, before washing (rather than using very cold water straight out of the tap). I also tap the tank against a hard surface during the presoak as well as giving the occasional tap during development.

This method works for me in Paterson tanks and, incidentally, because I get dermatitis from photo chemistry, I don't use inversion agitation, I use the less effective stirring method.

Hope the next film comes out better.

 

[srs5694]

The usual problem with bubbles, which can be solved by tapping the tank, is an occasional air bubble that clings randomly to the film, but your problem appears to be a localized to one side of the film, suggesting a much more serious problem at the very top (or conceivably bottom) of the reel. That was what prompted my thought about foaming at the surface of the solution, which could be corrected by adding some more volume to the solutions -- with more volume, any foaming will occur above the film and so won't affect it.

You might consider sacrificing some chemicals, and perhaps even a roll of film for added authenticity, and run an experiment: Run the process and remove the lid periodically to examine what's happening. If the level drops during the process or if you see foam on the surface, then adding volume may help. Perhaps you'd see something else that others haven't suggested.

Another thought: Is the surface on which you're developing perfectly level? If you rest the tank on a sloped surface, the reel might poke one end or the other out of the solution, even if you've got the manufacturer-recommended volume of solution. When you agitate and put the tank back down, it could easily happen that you'd get different parts of the reel (and film) rising out of the solution, so the problem could appear throughout the roll (although probably more severely on the parts that fall on the outside curve of the spiral -- normally the first frames, for MF film).

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

These problems show up periodically here, and are a reality of processing film.

I have had the air bell problem too.

Others may not agree, but my problems went away when I went from plastic to stainless steel tanks and reels.

Besides the tanks and reels, my process isn't much different from yours.

- Thomas

 

[Q.G.]

You'll probably know this, and it probably isn't what's causing this, but if you use a wetting agent and don't clean the spiral and/or tank (i never put wetting agent in a tank i develop film in. Always put it in water in a separate vessel i then drop the film in), the next time you're going to process film you'll be producing a nice head of foam inside the tank.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

Excellent point. When I use wetting agent, I use a separate container that is dedicated to the use of wetting agent.

I completely remove the film from the developing reels, and with my hands I see-saw the film through the wetting agent before I hang it up to dry.
I even rinse my hands really well before I grab the next reel that has film in it - just to avoid any trace of wetting agent getting onto the reels, and subsequently into the tank and the developer, causing foam when I process film next time.
Since I use a replenished developer, this is even more sensitive for me, because it accumulates over time.

- Thomas

You'll probably know this, and it probably isn't what's causing this, but if you use a wetting agent and don't clean the spiral and/or tank (i never put wetting agent in a tank i develop film in. Always put it in water in a separate vessel i then drop the film in), the next time you're going to process film you'll be producing a nice head of foam inside the tank.

 

[Andrew Moxom]

What Thomas said.... I've used the Paterson tanks before and got exactly the same type of marks. Changing agitation helped a little. I basically do not completely invert the tank, but do a figure 8, by twisting the tank around it's vertical axis, and then rocking the tank side to side so as NOTto cuase too many air bubbles. Like others have said. Make sure you clean the reels religiously and remove ALL traces of wetting agents. Ideally NEVER place wetting agent into your tanks but remove the film from the reels and putting wetting agent in a container with the final rinse and make a use shape loop with the film through the wetting agent/bath.

Switching to Hewes stainless reels and I barely ever get any issues anymore regardless of film and developer type.

 

[R gould]

I always prefer to use 600ml instead of the recomended 500,with the patterson tanks, and I don't seem to get these sort of problems,it allows for the slight possibility of the spiral "creeping" when you invert the tank,R

 

[Guillaume Zuili]

I had the exact same issue. As soon as I changed for stainless reels it was over.
G.

 

[fschifano]

You've got two things going on here at the same time, and if you're not familiar with the way it looks, things can get confusing. First, let's address what looks like air bubbles on the right side of the image. That's classic, and points to an insufficient volume of developer in the tank. Five hundred ml. is what's called for, but it's not enough. It just barely covers, and if you invert the tank to agitate there will be some leakage. It doesn't take much loss before the edge of the film is not completely submerged all the time. Second, I'm seeing what looks like uneven development in the sky - another classic mistake, this time one of insufficient agitation. The fix is easy. Use more developer and agitate more vigorously. I routinely use 600 ml for processing a single 120 roll or two 35 mm rolls. I use the stick for 5 complete back and forth motions in 5 seconds each half minute and never have these sorts of artifacts appear on my negatives. The business about Photoflo gunking up your reels and tanks is also very much overblown. Yes, it's true that if you don't clean your tanks and reels there will be some residual Photoflo left on the appliances, and it will cause you grief down the road. But the fact is that if you rinse the equipment off well with warm water after use, there is no residue left. Heck, you don't even need warm water. Cold tap water is just as effective. I haven't bothered to remove the film from the reel before the wetting agent for more years than I care to count, and I do not have problems with sticky reels or foamy developer. Someone please explain how that can be if Photoflo is such a problem. I'd love to hear it.

 

[Q.G.]

Perhaps your PhotoFlo isn't as good as mine?

I use Paterson tanks. They leak quite well all by themselves. But really excell in that when residual wetting agent is frothing the content up. So no wetting agent in the developing tank for me, thank you very much.

Yes, you can of course rinse the stuff off before using the tank again. But it takes quite a bit of water to make it go away completely. So i do that 'wetting' stuff in something i don't need to clean as thoroughly.

It just makes life a little bit easier to do it like that, i found. So (to balance your more years than you care to count ) i have been doing it like that for what sees forever now.

 

[Rick A]

I dont believe its the wetting agent that froths, the developer does a good job of that all by itself. If you have insufficient developer, meand a little extra air space which helps the developer foam. If wetting agent were the cause, why does LFN added to the developer stop it from happening. Next time you pour developer back into a bottle watch the suds that occur, unless you are timid pouring. I get foam in my developer bottle every time its returned (D-76 replenished).

 

[fschifano]

Perhaps your PhotoFlo isn't as good as mine?

To be fair, I use a pretty weak solution of Photoflo. At least in my tap water, 1/2 strength is more than enough.

 

[Andrew Moxom]

Some developers have their own wetting agents within them. Avoid putting more of it in the tank and on the reels. IT WILL CAUSE YOU PROBLEMS. The Paterson reels build up 'plaque' for want of a better word that causes more bubbles at the edges of the film. IT needs to be cleaned off with boiling water and bleach (Clorox kind) and cleaned with an old toothbrush. This worked for a while for me, but I found the reels were still prone to producing airbells at the edges of the film.I dumped my Paterson tanks in the end. Regardless of what people say, inversion with the paterson system causes me airbell issues regardless of how full you make the tanks. My tanks did not leak either. At anyrate if you must use the Paterson system, minimize the amount of agitation and do not, repeat NOT invert the tank completely to keep air bubbles to a minimum. This is a known phenomenon that has caused MANY people the same issue. Searching back over similar threads will reveal exactly what many have told you here. I know It's hard to see the wood for the trees when this type of problem happens. You will also get all types of answers. Some of which have been tried and shown to make no difference. Some which show to work well. As a convert to the stainless reels and tanks, I no longer get ANY of the problems I had, and you now have with the Paterson system. The Paterson system to me is like rolling the dice... I no longer want to gamble having my negs trashed any longer.

 

[Sim2]

Ironically I got *similar* edge effects on one side of the film when I started using my 'blad (about six months ago) which I did not see on 35mm film. Same reels, same tank, same dev etc. Using the paterson tank as the OP. These marks have dissappeared once I used 550ml of dev rather than the stated 500ml amount of fluid.

Don't know if it was air bubbles that couldn't escape the 120 film but could escape from 35mm film, foaming or what (don't use wetting agent in the tank).

Whatever, try a bit extra chems and see what happens - along with all the other good suggestions. Thought, don't try all the new things at once otherwise you may never know which one fixed the issue!

Sim2.

 

[vedmak]

Could be inconsistent technique, for myself I find that presoaking will get rid of air bubbles, some people recomment tapping dev tanks hard on the table, which is easier done with metal ones.

 

[Anscojohn]

I always add just a dab more liquid than called for. If you have any LFN you canadd a drop or two(no more than) in your developer to break up bubbles. I always presoak for at least two minutes prior to developing which seems to help prevent bubbles from sticking.

*******
Ditto. And, yes to OP. Agitate for the remaining thirty seconds it takes after filling the tank; then thump the tank sharply with the heel of the hand before putting it down. Always agitate then thump.