Developing Kodachrome II, 25 & 40 8mm movie film in Caffenol C

G'day all.

From time to time I shoot vintage Kodak Kodachrome II, 25 and 40 Double 8 and Super 8 movie film made in the 60s, 70s and 80s and develop them in Caffenol C as B&W negatives and thought I'd share my experience and knowledge of it as it might be of value to some who want to shoot/develop this old film and know how to successfully make these films produce B&W pictures.

Firstly I understand that when shooting vintage film a rough guideline to follow is you overexpose it by 1 f-stop per decade of age so I pretty much follow that rule with the exception of my oldest stock which needed even more exposure to work.

Then comes the developing part, I develop all of my B&W films in Caffenol C as it works well for me for all my vintage and new films and it's cheap. Now developing Kodachrome movie films, the developing times are very specific especially for K-II films. I had troubles developing my double 8 K-II films as they kept coming out totally jet black and I was wondering what was going on. The first one I developed for 15 min at 25/26 deg C room temp and the result was jet black film, the second one I rolled back the time to 6 min at 25/26 deg room temp and also got jet black film which got me perplexed. Then with some discussion with a couple of other amateur cinematographers I learned that I must develop the film at a cooler temperature around 20 deg C and so I did that for my third K-II film and I rolled the develop time back to 4 min and that's when things started to look up for me. I can actually see through the film now and see some very very very faint pictures, that's because the film expired in 1965 and I didn't overexpose enough. So for my fourth K-II double 8 film (expired May 1967) I shot it at max exposure f-1.2 and I developed it in Caffenol C-M at 20 deg C for only 3 min and voila I got awesome looking pictures!!! I have recently shot an even older K-II double 8 that expired in March 1966 which I overexposed the same way and developed the same way and also got good results.

Alongside the K-II films I've shot some K-25 and K-40 films and for the K-25 one of my contacts developed it for 6 min in Rodinal so I thought 6 min in Caffenol C-M at 20 deg C and that worked great for my 1980 expired K-25 double 8 film. The K-40 seems to have a bit more tolerance range for developing time and I've looked at a few Caffenol C developed K-40s and the time/temp given and I decided 9 min would be ideal and it worked nicely for my 1989 expired K-40 Super 8.

So to my own opinion I have pretty much got the formula down pat for developing old Kodachrome movie films in Caffenol C and so here's the details:

Caffenol C formula: Caffenol C-M recipe
1L water
54g washing soda
16g vitamin C powder (pure ascorbic acid type)
40g instant coffee

Developing Kodachrome II:
Develop for 3 min at 20 deg C
Wash
Fix 5 min
Wash

Developing Kodachrome 25:
Develop for 6 min at 20 deg C
Wash
Fix 5 min
Wash

Developing Kodachrome 40:
Develop for 9 min at 20 deg C
Wash
Fix 5 min
Wash

I have attached to this thread some snapshots from my Kodachromes of the three types and most of the films are on my YouTube Channel https://www.youtube.com/user/troysvisualarts for those who want to see them just look up "kodachrome".

My next challenge is to try and make a first generation Kodachrome movie film work as I have in possession a Kodachrome double 8 film that expired in March 1962, as I understand the first Kodachromes were only 10 ASA so not only will have to max the exposure on this film but I will also have to reduce the frame rate as well, most likely to 8fps or perhaps 12fps if sensitive enough, and developing time is a mystery too could be about the same as K-II or could be less. I will do a test record of the first 10 or 20 sec of the film recording at 8fps and 12fps in sunny weather and test develop sections of it and see what works best. Then I will shoot/develop the rest of the film.

Cheers
Troy

What I yet did not understand is the idea, aside of processing fun, of developing cine film to a negative.
I guess it really is about the processing.

Did you change the fixing step somewhat with the two middle samples, as the filter layer vanished? Maybe though it is just veiled by fog.

The fixing is the same for all films, it would be the lighting when I took the snaps as I stuck them over different light boxes and perhaps the exposure when I photographed them with my phone camera. I have too noticed there's some slight differences in colour between Kodachromes too, the 1989 K-40s I've used have look a lot more yellow than the 1981 K-40s I've used. Anyhow what I will do shortly is get them 4 films and photograph them again over one light and at the same exposure to make it easier to tell the differences between them.

Reason I process them as a negative is because it's the only way I know of in cross processing Kodachrome cine film and others who shoot/process that film these days do so in that fashion. I am not sure if Kodachrome can also be reversed as a B&W positive but am now inspired to Google research and find out.

I guess my question would be what you do with it once you process it. You can't project it - well you COULD but it would like pretty odd. Do you contact print it onto other cine film? Seems like it would be clumsy. Do you make prints from it? You could do that of course but the frame is so tiny, why not a 16mm still camera or, better yet, 35mm half frame or something if you want to play with sub-miniature?

I am cringing as I'm about to say this as I understand these forums are strictly analog, I get my films digitally transferred and inverted to be made playable as a positive as it's literally the only way unless I do as you suggested do a contact print or use an analog tube TV camera with picture negative function to record the negative projected image and record to videotape. I kind of wished I thought about this before posting the thread now seeing the end process involves the digital counterpart but I figured some people in here play around with old Kodachrome movie films and do what I do so thought I'd share my knowledge in how to get these old films to work today even though it won't be in the same way as originally intended.

As I've said to AgX I am now inspired to find out how I can B&W reversal process these films now as naturally it would be more satisfying to see these films projected on a screen with black dust and scratches and tramlines for original effect than watching on computer inverted with white dust and scratches and tramlines.

No worries. While we're not supposed to talk about it in detail here I don't think there's a prohibition on saying, "well I basically use a hybrid work flow because there's no other choice" and if there is such a prohibition there shouldn't be.

Makes a certain kind of sense I suppose.

I have done a bit of Googling to find out if Kodachrome can be reversal developed as a B&W positive and the answer is yes! . A photographer named Jonathan Gazeley posted this blog on his successful B&W reversal cross process of his Kodachrome film http://www.jonathangazeley.com/2014/01/processing-kodachrome-as-a-black-white-reversal-film/ which he included all the details on the process and chemicals involved. I've been a bit reserved to do reversal processing because of the cost of chemicals but am pushing myself into it as I plan on I shooting my 1956 expired Lumiere Alticolor autochrome colour film which needs a reversal B&W process so when doing that on the side I will also try reversal processing my next Kodachrome and see how it works out.

The yellow filter layer in Kodachrome was not made out of a dye, but rather a silver halide compound called "colloidal silver" which is yellow in color. This was an ingenious device in Kodachrome which allowed the filter layer to be removed during the normal course of reversal bleaching and fixing. Essentially it was washed out of the emulsion along with all of the rest of the silver in the emulsion, and only the dyes formed during color development were left behind.

The yellow which appears in some of your images might be colloidal silver. Apparently since it was not exposed to enough light it didn't turn black during development and still retains its yellow color after the rest of the emulsion was fixed. If it is colloidal silver there is a possibility that it is still light sensitive and that it might turn black if exposed to strong light. I recommend imaging the film soon to preserve the detail which you have.


There was some discussion on APUG about dealing with this colloidal silver layer in developing Kodachrome in black and white. I recall that Kodak had a publication dealing with this subject. There is also considerable discussion about developing Kodachrome and reversing it into a final black and white positive print. Such a process would remove the colloidal silver in the reversal bleach and remove the risk that the filter layer would be left in the film and could become dark, obscuring the images.

falotico said:

If it is colloidal silver there is a possibility that it is still light sensitive and that it might turn black if exposed to strong light.

Click to expand...

Carey Lea silver IS metallic. It can't be reduced any further, neither can it turn black by radiation. It would Need physical rearranging of particles to make this happen.


The only way to turn black in this context would bed dissolving, halogenating and then radiating.
But don't see how such halogenating would take place during fixing.

Some of the literature I have read says that the yellow filter layer in Kodachrome can be developed into a black color. Perhaps these sources are inaccurate, but I have never seen a precise description of the composition of the Kodachrome filter layer. Possibly it contains some silver halide.

Yes, that (a mixture of Carey Lea silver and silver-halides, the latter to be developed to a neutral filter layer) was employed.
But by a competing manufacturer.

Thank you typicalaussiebloke for posting this. I have an exposed roll of K40 in D8 that I would like to process in some way. It is quite recent stock that was marketed in the Uk as Cinechrome. I could convert a negative using one of these box type devices for putting old films onto video. It would at least allow me to view the footage. I cannot recall what it was used for, although I know it went through a Bolex D8 LA. I haven't used Caffenol before, but I suspect HC110 would probably work.
Alex.

Alex Muir said:

Thank you typicalaussiebloke for posting this. I have an exposed roll of K40 in D8 that I would like to process in some way. It is quite recent stock that was marketed in the Uk as Cinechrome. I could convert a negative using one of these box type devices for putting old films onto video. It would at least allow me to view the footage. I cannot recall what it was used for, although I know it went through a Bolex D8 LA. I haven't used Caffenol before, but I suspect HC110 would probably work.
Alex.

Click to expand...

No worries. From what I've seen pretty much any commercial B&W developer will work in developing Kodachrome as a B&W negative, HC-110, D-76, Rodinal etc... You just have to work out time/temperature for the develop.

To add to the Kodachrome series, I have now done a test strip from my Kodachrome double 8 film that expired March 1962 shooting at f-1.2, I test recorded at 8fps, 12fps and 16fps for about 15-20 sec, and in darkness cut that bit of film and cut pieces from it and done test develops in Caffenol C-M at 19 deg C. The first develop was for 3 min, got no pictures and a rather light clear yellowish base, so 3 min was too short for this film, then I developed the second test piece for 6 min and got a dark but yet still see through film and no pictures, so that was okay but a bit too long, so I rolled the time back to 4.5 min and that was perfect and I can see pictures! The weird thing was all frame rates yielded the same picture which makes me wonder is the speed at which the shutter opens and closes is the same no matter what the frame rate is (8fps, 16fps, 24fps etc.) and the frame rate is actually the speed at which the camera transitions from one frame to the next?

Anyways so for late 50s/early 60s Kodachrome double 8s, you shoot at max aperture and strictly in sunny weather as it's 10 ASA film now rated around 1 to 2 ASA and is very very insensitive. And then you develop as a B&W negative in Caffenol C-M for 4.5 min at 19-20 deg C.

I plan shoot the rest of the that 1962 Kodachrome film hopefully later this week or sometime next week on a very sunny day.

The shutter rotating speed is coupled to the film or frame advance. Thus I am puzzled that there is no difference in density between your test series.

Meters with cine scales have different settings for each speed suggesting that 'shutter speed' varies. 16fps with a shutter angle of 180* is about 1/40sec.
Alex

Thanks for the info. I am surprised to not notice any difference between film speeds, but it's probably because the test subject was the back of my mum's old white station wagon car which was reflecting enough light from the hazy sun to make the film sensitive at the variable frame rates.

Anyways attached is a snap of a section of the test strip from that 1962 expired Kodachrome, as seen is a hazy negative of the back of mum's car.

Just beginning to use a Super 8 camera with my first Kodachrome K40 include with the camera I bought.

I use Caffenol CM for 13:30min, 22° and I shot 2 stops over (film expired since 1988). Great results, and no orange layer!

That looks good. I take it you are producing a B&W negative?
Alex

I used your recipe for developing the Kodachrome K40, but it seems I messed up somewhere, I was wondering if you could help me identify where I've gone wrong here. Only a fraction of the frames developed, but the most emulsion seems to have been completely stripped save for some purple swirls. Maybe K40 isn't compatible with the blix I used?

Resuming an old thread. I bought an 8mm movie camera over the weekend which has an old film in it and I shall attempt to develop using the caffenol-c recipe. The text stamped into the beginning of the film says "KM V67" does anyone know if this is KII? I recall K40 and K25 were stamped KMA.

Look forward to hearing and seeing your results.

foc said:

Look forward to hearing and seeing your results.

Click to expand...

Hoping to get to it at the weekend. No idea what to expect as the film is probably decades old and who knows how many times the camera was opened before I got to it (and opened it myself). But the camera was in it's fake leather case and needed effort to prize it out....so perhaps it's not been too disturbed and in addition to 15 feet that I shot there might be some decades old home movies followed by the fun of trying to track down the family of the original shooter!

Finally did this yesterday and the results are almost nil. Nothing to share here sadly.

I settled on 4 minutes in caffenol-C, freshly made up with laboratory grade L-ascorbic acid, sodium carbonate and Co-Op instant coffee dissolved in distilled water. Processed the film during my lunch break. Not all the remjet came off in the tank so I had to manually remove some.

3/4 of the film is blank, by which I mean the base is a very pale amber and there's nothing else there. I can see right through it. This is probably the 3/4 shot before I obtained the camera a couple of weeks ago. Could have been shot decades ago. 1/4 has some very faint images, I cannot even identify them but I suspect they are the images I shot two weeks ago to finish off the film.

My problems were that I was unable to identify which version of Kodachrome it was. I guessed likely pre-K14 process which lead me to the short processing time. But I do think that had I added a couple of minutes the images might have been more dense.

I'll not be buying any unexposed Kodachrome but will adjust times if I come across any more old stuff inside a camera.