Developing help - what went wrong?

thenikonknight · Jun 16, 2011

Ok, I am haven't done much B&W developing, especially lately. I've shot Ilford's Pan F+ @ iso 50. Development was with AGFA Rodinal (1+50) 11 mins @ 20C.

However, both rolls of negatives did not deveop correctly. Please see attached photos. Can someone point out what could be the problem here (if you've seen this happen before)? and how I can avoid this next time??

I would really appreciate all the input you can offer as I'd like to conserve film (but even more importantly - not lose good photographic subjects).
Thank you everyone for all of your help!

trexx · Jun 16, 2011

Tell us about the tank and reels used.
how you agitated, did you presoak?
type of stop and fix

thenikonknight · Jun 16, 2011

trexx said:
Tell us about the tank and reels used.
how you agitated, did you presoak?
type of stop and fix

Pre-soak? I don't think I've ever tried that (yes, if you can't tell I am still pretty new at B&W developing).

I use a small 2 reel plastic Patterson tank. I load everything in a dark bag as a darkroom is not feasible where I live.
If it makes any difference or not - I bulk load my film in a Watson bulk film loader to metal film canisters.

Agitation was 1 minute constant agitation - then agitate 5 secs. every 30 seconds...11 minutes total development time.

Fixer - 100ml Clayton orderless fixer + 400ml Distilled water (actually I used filtered tap water as I didn't have distilled water available)
I fixed for 60 seconds.

Wash - 5mins.
5 cycles (approx 500ml new water every minute) @1 min each.

on the last wash cycle I added a couple drops of PhotoFlo

Neal · Jun 16, 2011

Dear thenikonknight,

You did not fix long enough. Try to re-fix, you might improve them enough to print. In the future, fix for at least 5 minutes. A longer won't hurt, but too short and you will always have issues.

Good luck!

Neal Wydra

thenikonknight · Jun 16, 2011

Neal said:
Dear thenikonknight,

You did not fix long enough. Try to re-fix, you might improve them enough to print. In the future, fix for at least 5 minutes. A longer won't hurt, but too short and you will always have issues.

Good luck!

Neal Wydra

Should I be agitating the tank during fixing?

tkamiya · Jun 16, 2011

I recall someone else had problem with fixer by Clayton. I also recall reading 60 seconds really was a recommendation from the manufacturer. You may be able to find that thread. Recommendation was a longer fixing time.

If you look at your film, does it have milky stuff still remaining? Are your edges where the sprocket holes are really clear? If not, you have insufficient fixing.

I use regular Kodak fixer. Kodak says to agitate continuously for the first 30 seconds and 5 inversions every 30 seconds. Did you get any documentation with your fixer? What does it say?

hpulley · Jun 16, 2011

Yes, fix for longer. Recommendations are generally 2-5 minutes and I usually fix for 5 minutes.

And yes, agitate while fixing for sure. 10s / minute or 5s / 30s is fine.

Worker 11811 · Jun 16, 2011

thenikonknight said:
Agitation was 1 minute constant agitation - then agitate 5 secs. every 30 seconds...11 minutes total development time.

Had a private conversation with Simon @ Ilford. He warned me not to over agitate Pan F+.

Now, I don't have experience with your developer and dilution but agitating 5 sec. per 30 sec. would be WAY too much agitation according to his instructions.

His advice is as follows:

Add the developer to the processing tank. Tap the tank firmly on the work bench to dislodge any air bubbles which may be trapped in the processing spiral.
Invert the tank four times during the first 10 seconds.
Repeat these four inversions during the first 10 seconds of each subsequent minute of development. At the end of each agitation sequence tap the tank firmly on the work bench to dislodge any air bubbles which may be trapped in the processing spiral. This method of agitation should also be used with the fixer.
Drain off the developer 10 seconds before the end of the development time immediately fill the tank with the next process solution.

He even confided to me that he knows some people who agitate even less than that.

Newt_on_Swings · Jun 16, 2011

Hmm the first picture looks like definite solarization, the 2nd looks fogged as well. You can see the edge reversals giving that outline look. When using your patterson reel did you remember to use the center column? It acts like as a light trap when doing daylight development.

Also did you load your reels in complete darkness? not even safelights can be used for panchromatic film.

Neal · Jun 17, 2011

PanF+ Agitation

Not trying to argue with Simon, but I develop PanF+ in a Jobo rotary system with constant agitation (75rpm) with great results. I don't find PanF+ more difficult to use than any other film. My take on the complaints I've seen about it are a result of combining over exposure with over development.

Neal Wydra

Роберт · Jun 17, 2011

Rotary development and Rodinal will kill all acutance for this developer. However in a larger format it's maybe not so bad but in 35mm it's terrible. The advice from Ilford is right: Minimum agitation with PAN F+ and Rodinal.

About the "problem". Yes, indeed a fixer problem. 1 minute is too short. Normally 5 minutes will do it but with Tgrain type films even 8 minutes fixing time where the clearing time X 3 = fix time of the film.

And yes you have to agitate while fixing the film.

Christopher Walrath · Jun 17, 2011

Not advice for your process but advice in general...

Whatever process you arrive at, make certain you can dulicate it, time and again. Consistant processes yield consistant results. And when troubleshooting a problem, change one thing at a time. Do wholesale changes at once and you cannot learn what one thing (if indeed it is only one thing) it was that you did that caused the defects.

Rick A · Jun 17, 2011

Sage advise indeed Christopher. I always treat fixer like it's developer. There are some fixers on the market that allow for short fixing times, and require constant agitation.

thenikonknight · Jun 17, 2011

Newt_on_Swings said:
Hmm the first picture looks like definite solarization, the 2nd looks fogged as well. You can see the edge reversals giving that outline look. When using your patterson reel did you remember to use the center column? It acts like as a light trap when doing daylight development.

Also did you load your reels in complete darkness? not even safelights can be used for panchromatic film.

Yes, I did use the center column before I dropped my reels in the tank and made sure the tank was closed by hearing the audible click.
I use a dark bag to prepare all of my developing equipment. I have not done a whole lot of development - but this is the first time I've had any trouble like this.

One other thing to note: I am using brand new metal cassettes and bulk loading my film in a Watson bulk film loader. Not sure if these cassettes could cause light leak but I never had an issue with plastic cassettes I've previously used.

Worker 11811 · Jun 17, 2011

Neal said:
Not trying to argue with Simon, but I develop PanF+ in a Jobo rotary system with constant agitation (75rpm) with great results. I don't find PanF+ more difficult to use than any other film. My take on the complaints I've seen about it are a result of combining over exposure with over development.

Neal Wydra

No argument here. Simon's message basically said, "This is what we recommend but do as you see fit."

I agree with your assessment: Over exposure and over development.
Improper fixing is also a reasonable assessment.

However, the caveat is that I don't use Rodinal developer or Clayton fixer. I don't know the properties of those two products.

It is possible that Rodinal at that concentration and timing is perfectly all right. It is also possible that Clayton fixer works correctly in only 60 seconds. Those who know those products better than I do will have to comment. (And already have.)

My first thought when I looked at the images was that they were over developed.
Then, with the solarization, it also seems to me that the film wasn't completely fixed.

Rick A · Jun 17, 2011

I use Rodinal, never at 1+25, always at 1+50 (and by error at 1+100). I have never experienced the issue described here. If I know I have extremely contrasty scenes I use reduced agitation(continuous first 30 sec., 10 secs every 3 mins), otherwise I use normal agitation(continuous first 30 secs, 10 secs every minute).

Gerald C Koch · Jun 17, 2011

Newt_on_Swings said:
Hmm the first picture looks like definite solarization, ... You can see the edge reversals giving that outline look,

I saw the same thing there is a definite outline look similar to solarization in sample 1.

Dennis S · Jun 17, 2011

You can still refix the film to see if it clears as per photo 2. With the metal cartridges I like to rotate the caps (slightly) after I put them on to make sure they are seated properly. I usually do a 2 min. fix even if my fix is new. After that it is the clip test.

Newt_on_Swings · Jun 18, 2011

You should seek out the plastic cassettes, the ends of the metal ones dont seem to hold after more than 1 reload. I did away with both of those and reuse discards from photo labs now.

as far as buying reloadable cassettes go, the plastic ones are easier to load/reload, and dont have crimping issues as the metal ones do over time. the only metal ones that are good time and again are leica and nikon cassettes though they are specific to their cameras (nice high quality metal work and design). the current kalt brands are just way too lacking in reuseability and seem to let light leak in on the edges of the felt trap.

the solarization affect only occurs after the initial exposure, so it isnt during your bulk reloading phase. it probably occurs either during transport, or when loading onto reels. check to make sure your bag/tent is totally light tight by shining a flashlight in it in a dim/dark room and seeing if you see a light leak or just load your film onto the reels at night in a dark room. the more variables you remove the easier it is to pinpoint the source of error.

Ambar · Jun 18, 2011

Whatever it is.. thats a cool effect anyways..!! Someone messed up the contrast curve nicely!!

60 seconds fixing? Sounds like it's not enough..
Cheers!

Ambar · Jun 18, 2011

Worker 11811 said:
My first thought when I looked at the images was that they were over developed.
Then, with the solarization, it also seems to me that the film wasn't completely fixed.

I Agree.
I don't have much experience with solarization, but the stuff I've seen does look somewhat like that.. I'm guessing (and this is really just a hunch) that an improper fixing could have allowed a solarization of sorts once he opened and exposed the reel in daylight. The image was stable enough to remain like this but was unstable enough to gain a solarized quality.. I could be dead wrong though.

Gerald C Koch · Jun 18, 2011

Sometimes the elastic around the arm cuffs of the changing bag become weak and allow light to enter.

hpulley · Jun 18, 2011

I always make sure to wear a long sleeved shirt when using my old changing bag as the elastic is decades old and doesn't hold it tight at all.

I once had a cut in the inner bag too from using scissors.

No problem re-loading metal cassettes so far but I have a ton of them so I don't use them 50 times or anything like that.

Developing help - what went wrong?

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