Developing Fomapan sheet film in Paterson Orbital with Pyrocat HD

Diane Cliffe · Sep 21, 2019

Can anybody recommend Pyrocat HD volumes, mix ratios and times for processing fomapan 400 8x10 (that is 2 lots of 4x10) in a Paterson Orbital processor?
And for future reference fomapan 100 4x5 in the Orbital ?!
Many thanks, Diane

Alan9940 · Sep 21, 2019

I've never used a Paterson Orbital, but have used a lot of Pyrocat-HD with various development techniques. I would use the Pyrocat at its recommended 1:1:100 and whatever volume is needed for the Orbital; err on more solution vs less. Suggested development time should be on the MDC. If you agitate continuously, I'd probably cut the development time by about 15%. If you agitate more like roll tank development, then use the MDC time and modify based on your results.

Ian Grant · Sep 21, 2019

I use 300ml when processing 7x5 or 10x8 in my Paterson Orbital, I use Jobo 2000 inversion tanks for 5x4 not so economic but the developer is cheap (when you mix your own).

Fomapan 100 is excellent in Pyrocat HD but it builds up contrast fast, I use it at 50 E and development at 20°C. I've use thE combination with 120 film my TLRs and images compare well with those made using Tmax and Delta 100. Fomapan 200 is also superb again I use it at half box speed, it'll be my main 10x8 film when I finally finish my EFKE/ADOX PL25 & Fortepan 200

ian

Diane Cliffe · Sep 21, 2019

Thanks all, what a great forum.

Ian you can take the rest of the night off!

Alan9940 · Sep 21, 2019

Ian Grant said:
I use 300ml when processing 7x5 or 10x8 in my Paterson Orbital, I use Jobo 2000 inversion tanks for 5x4 not so economic but the developer is cheap (when you mix your own).

Fomapan 100 is excellent in Pyrocat HD but it builds up contrast fast, I use it at 50 E and development at 20°C. I've use thE combination with 120 film my TLRs and images compare well with those made using Tmax and Delta 100. Fomapan 200 is also superb again I use it at half box speed, it'll be my main 10x8 film when I finally finish my EFKE/ADOX PL25 & Fortepan 200

ian

I've used the Fomapan 100 10x8 / Pyrocat-HD combo for a few years...it's wonderful! I think you'll like it.

Diane Cliffe · Sep 22, 2019

I gave up with Pyrocat HD and developed with PMK instead! I am really happy with the results and the Orbital is so much easier than using trays.
One thing though, I pre-washed the film, given the Fomapan anti-halation layer, and even after developing, washing and fixing, the base of the negative still had a reasonable amount of the the anti-halation layer that each of the solutions could not remove. I am pretty sure this has not affected the results, but oddly unsettling all the same.
While googling the Orbital I recall reading that some users place some ‘steps’ on the base of the Orbital or even scratch it to prevent the negatives sticking. Any recommendations?

Thanks again, Diane

Alan9940 · Sep 22, 2019

Diane, most folks who have an Orbital seem to do something in the bottom to allow fluid circulation under the film. At couple of suggestions: 1) pre-soak the film in a tray of water and you might try a hypo clear at the end. How long are you pre-soaking? I recommend 5 mins. If this doesn't completely remove the anti-halation layer it should all come out in the final wash.

Diane Cliffe · Sep 23, 2019

It was a good 5 minutes of pre-washing but the negative still had some 50% covering on the base after fixing; though it does not appear to have affected the quality of the negatives following a good wash. I was just concerned that it could contaminate the developer or even dilute it, but clearly not (?).
I am probably worrying unnecessarily but will try to think of some inert material that I can place selectively on the base.

LimeyKeith · Sep 23, 2019

Diane, because I was bored waiting for a delivery I ran some free-standing tests on Fomapn 100, 200 & 400 scraps of film I keep for just these sort of purposes to see how long it took to remove the green dye, here's what I found:
1. There was no difference in clearing time between any of the films.
2. In a gently running wash water all the films cleared in 5½ to 6 minutes
3. In plain water with no pre-wash and intermittent agitation - as in a processing workflow - each was clear within 12 minutes - the developer turned bright green, stop bath was very pale green and in the fix it was hardly discernable.
4. On their own, the Developer, Ilford Stop Bath and Rapid fixer all cleared the film in roughly the same time as plain water (3) - but of course they turned green.
Given your issues it would seem that your chemicals do not have sufficient access to the back of the film in your processor to completely wash out the green dye. I seem to recollect someone advocating epoxy'ing small plastic rods in the base to overcome this but I might be wrong.
Hope this is of some use.

Mr Flibble · Sep 23, 2019

With an unmodified orbital tank (Leaving the fins on the lid and only adding self-adhesive rubber domes to the bottom to stop the film from sticking to it), I find I can safely use 175ml of developer without causing 'horror lines' from the developer sloshing against the fins.
That volume of developer is just enough for a HC110 bath at Dillution B.

I don't know if that is remotely enough making a proper working solution of Pyrocat.

Alan9940 · Sep 23, 2019

Diane,

I have shot quite a bit of 8x10 Fomapan 100 developing via various methods: BTZS tubes, homemade tanks, and tanks/hangers--5 min pre-wash--and I've often noticed just a tinge of color in the final wash water. Therefore, I'm not sure it's even possible to totally remove all the anti-halation dye with Foma films. That said, I would definitely recommend that you modify the Orbital to keep the film back from sticking to the bottom.

Mr Flibble · Sep 24, 2019

Yeah, Fomapan in medium and large format has that funky green anti-halation layer. I pre-soak it and then refresh the pre-soak water once or twice to get most of the dye out of the tank before developing.

Diane Cliffe · Sep 26, 2019

LimeyKeith said:
Diane, because I was bored waiting for a delivery I ran some free-standing tests on Fomapn 100, 200 & 400 scraps of film I keep for just these sort of purposes to see how long it took to remove the green dye, here's what I found:
1. There was no difference in clearing time between any of the films.
2. In a gently running wash water all the films cleared in 5½ to 6 minutes
3. In plain water with no pre-wash and intermittent agitation - as in a processing workflow - each was clear within 12 minutes - the developer turned bright green, stop bath was very pale green and in the fix it was hardly discernable.
4. On their own, the Developer, Ilford Stop Bath and Rapid fixer all cleared the film in roughly the same time as plain water (3) - but of course they turned green.
Given your issues it would seem that your chemicals do not have sufficient access to the back of the film in your processor to completely wash out the green dye. I seem to recollect someone advocating epoxy'ing small plastic rods in the base to overcome this but I might be wrong.
Hope this is of some use.

Your testing confirms my times for removal of the dye, several washes/ rinses lasting approx. 5 mins, but this was after developing and fixing. I will have to give some thought to any placement of rods to allow water flow underneath the film. Thanks.

Diane Cliffe · Sep 26, 2019

Mr Flibble said:
Yeah, Fomapan in medium and large format has that funky green anti-halation layer. I pre-soak it and then refresh the pre-soak water once or twice to get most of the dye out of the tank before developing.

This may well be the answer, but the buying of the Orbital was to make the whole process a lot easier than using trays, which I am pleased to say it is, for me anyway. Doing the whole development in daylight is bliss compared to using trays! Thanks.

Mr Flibble · Sep 27, 2019

I hear you, I've been very happy with mine these last couple of years. Especially with the motor base.

And the Fomapan dye really isn't an issue, if you don't mind your chemistry taking on some green hues. I'm using one-shot developer anyway. It does make keeping track of the color (life-span) of your stopbath a little harder, though.

Developing Fomapan sheet film in Paterson Orbital with Pyrocat HD

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