Developing film myself for the first time

Sirius Glass said:

Stop bath will stop development immediately.

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Take one film, split it in two parts, process them both the same way except the stop bath (use acid with one part, the other with water). Tell the difference.

Sirius Glass said:

Stop bath will lengthen the fixer [hypo] life. Water will shorting it

Click to expand...

Now, do the same thing but several times storing the fixer in two different bottles. Tell the difference.

Sirius Glass said:

Stop bath with indicator is not only inexpensive, it tells you when the stop bath is going bad.

Click to expand...

Water is more regular.

The comprehensive indicator tells you - with the appropriate experience - that there're more than one way of doing things. Equally valid and applicable.

keenmaster486 said:

1. Develop for 12.5 minutes.
2. Water "stop bath"
3. Fix for 8 minutes.
4. Wash thoroughly.
5. Hang to dry.

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1. Agitation?
2. Time?
3. Why? Agitation?
4. Define "thoroughly"
5. How?

keenmaster486 said:

BUT the film was slightly fogged because I was loading it on the reel in the closet, pitch dark, when my roommate came in and turned on the light outside.

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Do your own "changing bag"! When I was ten I made it with dark clothes (without ruining them) and was one of the first things I bought (not only useful for loading film)

keenmaster486 said:

So there was a little bit of light coming in through the cracks, and the film being 400 ISO it probably fogged it

Click to expand...

A little bit of light is a little bit of light for any film

Congratulations for your first time!
Best

With the bottles you use for storage, the three things to be aware of are:

1. Are they clean? Ensure nothing remains of the previous contents.
2. Will the bottle deteriorate in contact with the chemicals? Some plastics can slowly react with photo chemicals...so watch for this.
3. Will the bottle cause early deterioration of the chemicals? Mostly applies to developer...opaque or amber bottles may be better...or store in a cupboard.

People do use milk bottles and the like, well cleaned out. Plastic milk bottles tend to be of HDPE material which won't degrade.

I have a Jessops branded concertina bottle, brown/opaque for developer. For fixer, I swiped an empty chemical bottle from work (I work in school laboratories), thoroughly cleaned. I make my own wetting agent and stop bath, similarly stored in reused chemical bottles.

LAG said:

1. Agitation?
2. Time?
3. Why? Agitation?
4. Define "thoroughly"
5. How?

Click to expand...

Oh, sorry... here's my process with all the details:

1. Develop for 12.5 minutes, agitating every minute by inversion
2. Water "stop bath" for not very long... maybe 30 seconds? I basically treated it as a wash step, agitating by rotation the whole time.
3. Fix for 8 minutes, agitating every minute by inversion.
4. Wash... The sink I was using had an INSANE "muzzle velocity", so to speak... basically I used it as a pressure washer I washed for about a minute.
5. Hang to dry on a hook on the wall using a binder clip.
6. Cut negatives after they dry and scan using a jerry-rigged consumer scanner method which works way better than I thought it would!

Here's another image (my mom and my sister around the holidays last year...)
Dead Link Removed

I would like to mention that the camera I was using was the sorriest-looking old cheap-o Kodak Hawkeye cardboard box camera you ever saw. The pictures I get from it usually do look just about like this.

LAG said:

Take one film, split it in two parts, process them both the same way except the stop bath (use acid with one part, the other with water). Tell the difference.



Now, do the same thing but several times storing the fixer in two different bottles. Tell the difference.



Water is more regular.

The comprehensive indicator tells you - with the appropriate experience - that there're more than one way of doing things. Equally valid and applicable.



1. Agitation?
2. Time?
3. Why? Agitation?
4. Define "thoroughly"
5. How?



Do your own "changing bag"! When I was ten I made it with dark clothes (without ruining them) and was one of the first things I bought (not only useful for loading film)



A little bit of light is a little bit of light for any film

Congratulations for your first time!
Best

Click to expand...

I used water only for a while and the fixer did not last as long.

Kodak et al have published articles about the advantages of using stop bath to stopping the development. It is great that you know more than all the film manufacturers that ever existed.

nice results !

you might also look into sprint film developer/fixer
they are a liquid concentrate mixed 1:9 (dev) and 2:8 (fix)
you can get them directly from their website: http://sprintsystems.com
the developer can be used "1 shot" the fixer used until it is exhausted.
they have info on their website about every film currently made,
and a chart to tell you depending on the camera, film age, type of lens ( plastic/glass ) &c
how much to extend or decrease development. sprint has been around since the 70s,
and has been the favorite developers of lots of high schools, colleges, professionals and hobbyists for a long time.
it might be easier to deal with than mixing a gallon at a time, which can be a pain to both mix and store ...
i've been using their developers and fixers since about 1980 ( its made about 20 minutes from where i live )
and the guy who started the company went out of his way to be one of the good ones. he even helped
me remove metalic green fog when i used a kodak developer, it ruined my film, and kodak told me to throw away my negatives.
( i even used a kodak product, go figure ) ...

Sirius Glass said:

Kodak et al have published articles about the advantages of using stop bath to stopping the development. It is great that you know more than all the film manufacturers that ever existed.

Click to expand...

Wow, thank you for the compliment Sirius Glass, but let me take the speck out of your eye, manufactures (that ever existed) also recommend running water, and at the same time they also give the appropriate advice on the "disadvantages" and hazards that exist in certain cases with an acid bath (...) (and not only because - it'll be no need for you to remember that - it is a chemical, right?). So, indeed it is a question of knowing, but not about me.

Anyway, with all my respect, you failed to get my point: "if one must have to give any advice to another person (especially to those who start with all this), the best option IMHO would the one that opens up more doors". I insist, there are more options than the Acid Stop Bath, more than one, more than two ...

keenmaster486 said:

1. Develop for 12.5 minutes, agitating every minute by inversion
2. Water "stop bath" for not very long... maybe 30 seconds? I basically treated it as a wash step, agitating by rotation the whole time.
3. Fix for 8 minutes, agitating every minute by inversion.
4. Wash... The sink I was using had an INSANE "muzzle velocity", so to speak... basically I used it as a pressure washer I washed for about a minute.
5. Hang to dry on a hook on the wall using a binder clip.
6. Cut negatives after they dry and scan using a jerry-rigged consumer scanner method which works way better than I thought it would!

Click to expand...

A lot to say about this, although I'm not sure you're going to like it or be interested.

Thanks for sharing

Generalizations:

• Developer 'stock solution' tends to have a longer shelf life than 'working dilution';
  for example 6 mo vs. 24 hrs. for HC-110
• A full bottle of stock solution developer lasts longer than a 1/2 bottle, because of air (oxygen) which oxidizes the developer, for example 6 mo vs. 2 mo. (HC-110); so if you use plastic to store a stock solution, squeeze out the air from the bottle when storing a partially filled bottle.
• Pour 'stock solution' in sufficient quantity to dilute down to 'working solution' just before use;
  don't make 'working dilution' a day in advance (see working dilution shelf life, above)
• Replenishment is a means of getting more surface area capacity out of developer
• ...but generally replenishment is 'it depends'...some developers take replenishment, other developers do not (they are one use only); usual limit on replenishment is to throw it away when the total volume of replenisher used is equal to the original volume of developer used.
• Never pour 'working dilution' back into 'stock solution'

LAG said:

A lot to say about this, although I'm not sure you're going to like it or be interested.

Click to expand...

I do want to hear it! I've never done this before and I want to refine my process.

But keep in mind that I can't go much more complicated than this... and as much as I wish I could have a real stop bath it's just not happening

keenmaster486 said:

as much as I wish I could have a real stop bath it's just not happening

Click to expand...

You do not 'have to' use stop bath. But keep in mind that using water in lieu of stop bath does change the contrastiness of the resulting negatives! Depending upon the individual shot, you might or might NOT want to alter the contrastiness of the negative...but that is very advanced subtleties in technique reflected within the Zone System methodology (don't even think about it now!)

If i don't have all the chemicals then i don't develop even if it can be done with some chemicals mainly developer and fixer.

I just finished developing a roll [120] of Tri-X400 that was exposed in 14 August 2016, and just today [29 Jan 2017] early morning was processed/developed, the film is waiting to be dried, but i can't tell how good or bad from the first look, sounds a lot of white areas which means black, right? no wonder because it was taken in the darkness time in my house outdoor in the yard, i know i can't scan to post here, maybe only for share, but doing it yourself you know how fun it is, i always feeling thrilled if i got the frames on the film.

I like watching/reading threads like this with members just starting to DIY, nice experience and nice impression of first time, also learning too.

Congratulations for your first processed film, keep going.

keenmaster486 said:

But keep in mind that I can't go much more complicated than this... and as much as I wish I could have a real stop bath it's just not happening

Click to expand...

stop bath has its advantages, but having extra chemicals lying around isn't one of them.
i haven't used stop bath since 1988 and i am sure if i had negatives in the thousand+ of exposed frames
in there, you woudln't be able to tell them apart ( as LAG suggested ). there have been threads on this website
where people insist you need stop bath, and others say, no, not really, whatever works for you .. it isn't necessary,
and like you, i would rather not have more chemicals in my "footprint" than needed ( needed: developer, fixer, water ).
i'm not sure maybe you consider fixer remover unnecessary, i would argue ---> use it: it saves more water than you want to imagine
( imagine hours of washing film, instead of minutes ).

If you are switching to Arista EDU 100 film, this is the same as Fomapan, and some people recommend not using an acid stop bath. Foma does recommend an mild acid stop bath. For a while, I listened to people I heard on the internet and skipped the acid stop bath. I didn't notice any difference. In the end I started using the stop bath again, because it is easier for me to have a standard processing regime with all films, varying only the development time. A use IlfoStop which is a citric acid fixer. Citric acid is readily available in grocery stores and Wal-Mart, usually in the canning section, if you choose to make your own.

If space is really an issue, consider switching your developer to either Rodinal or Kodak HC-110 (Legacy makes a L110 developer which works similarly): both come as concentrated liquids in sturdy, but small, containers which do not need to be diluted and stored before use (no secondary containers). They both also last a long time. A bottle of either of these may cost a little more up front, but both are very cheap in the long run as they each develop many rolls of film. If shooting Arista EDU, I would choose Rodinal as Foma does not recommend HC-110 for this film.

Also, Arista EDU in 120 format contains a bright green dye which will quickly stain your stop green. If you purchase stop bath with indicator, you may want to do a quick water rinse before adding the stop.

keenmaster486 said:

1. Develop for 12.5 minutes, agitating every minute by inversion
2. Water "stop bath" for not very long... maybe 30 seconds? I basically treated it as a wash step, agitating by rotation the whole time.
3. Fix for 8 minutes, agitating every minute by inversion.
4. Wash... The sink I was using had an INSANE "muzzle velocity", so to speak... basically I used it as a pressure washer I washed for about a minute.

Click to expand...

1) Your agitation should be slow, deliberate and involve randomn motions that include some twisting - it should cause the liquid to gently tumble through the tank - and if you are agitating every minute, it should last about 10 seconds;
2) if you use stop bath (recommended by me) than you should agitate continuously, using the same sort of agitation as for the developer. If you use a water stop, you need either running water, or several changes of water with the same sort of agitation as with developer. 30 seconds is fine for stop bath, but too short for a water wash;
3) If it is a rapid fixer, 8 minutes may be enough. If it is a non-rapid fixer, it may be too short. You need to pin down the time using regular clip tests. Fixer requires the same agitation as developer;
4) If you have too much water pressure, you need to fill larger containers with it, and then manually fill the tank at least 10 times, with each cycle including agitation and soaking time. In any event, your film hasn't received nearly enough washing - there is still a bunch of fixer in it, and it should quickly deteriorate.
Here is Kodak's recommendations:

"Water Wash 5 minutes after a Hypo Clearing Agent step OR 20 to 30 minutes without a Hypo Clearing Agent step.
Remove the top from the tank. Run the wash water at least fast enough to provide a complete change of water in the tank in 5 minutes.
(as an alternative) For rapid washing in a small tank, fill the tank to overflowing with fresh water and then dump it all out. Repeat this cycle 10 times.
They came from this document: http://imaging.kodakalaris.com/sites/prod/files/files/resources/AJ-3.pdf

Doesn't seem like anybody said it but it works well to leave the film on the spool and in the tank to rinse it. Shoot the water in the cap where you would normally add chemicals and let the water run back out the vent. You don't need to take it off the spool and pressure wash it but let it soak in water. Also, you may not need to leave the water on full blast all of the time. Much of the work of the wash is done by simple diffusion of the fixer into the clean water. Fill it up, leave it set a few minutes, then dump it out and repeat over a period of twenty minutes or half an hour.

Also, for the friend-barging-in problem, a simple sticky note over the door knob and light switch work wonders. Just don't annoy him by keeping him out of his bedroom forever...

Brian

keenmaster486 said:

But keep in mind that I can't go much more complicated than this...

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No, is not complicated at all keenmaster486! ... but easier does not mean "simple"

keenmaster486 said:

I do want to hear it! I've never done this before and I want to refine my process.

Click to expand...

First of all, you process should be refined by your own experience and T&E learning, so take these words as suggestions from someone who has a different way, no better, no worse than any other one. You do not know how hard for me is to write down this kind of explanations because the important idea to transmit to someone (like you) who starts with this (or anything new in life) should be "learn by yourself to think and reasoning what you do before doing" and you should not "think that you have to learn to do how the rest do things".

keenmaster486 said:

... the details:

1. Develop for 12.5 minutes, agitating every minute by inversion
2. Water "stop bath" for not very long... maybe 30 seconds? I basically treated it as a wash step, agitating by rotation the whole time.
3. Fix for 8 minutes, agitating every minute by inversion.
4. Wash... The sink I was using had an INSANE "muzzle velocity", so to speak... basically I used it as a pressure washer I washed for about a minute.
5. Hang to dry on a hook on the wall using a binder clip.
6. Cut negatives after they dry and scan using a jerry-rigged consumer scanner method which works way better than I thought it would!.

Click to expand...

1. Agitation is not a decoration, just like inversion is a recommendation. The first minute with every reducing agent (developer) is of great importance for that (in fact the first 4 minutes). Once the developer is inside the tank you should "be there with it" all the time "trying to see" what it is happening with the film. And the "film road" also has its own "curves".

2. Same thing happens with this SB. You should "be inside the tank" up to the point to guess where the bath has neutralized the reducer. However you should ensure at least that the most amount of chemical has been done and removed from action. While 30 seconds could be good for an acid bath (where the chemical neutralization is more effective), 30 seconds seems not enough with water, therefore - although being more dissolved and with less vigor - the reducer will be there and will continue. And because of being there, it will go to meet the fixer. While it's true that the fixer will do the rest of the "stop" job, the fixer will have to do an extra task, losing part of its strength (if your intention is to re-use it again some other time). With the appropriate experience with water SB, you'll learn how to manage the time dev/SB-->fix. Temperature in this step is quite important as well (and I'm saying this just in case your water is tap water, something for you to consider)

3. You didn't answer my question: Why 8 minutes? As for the agitation (as Mattking said above), the fixer should have the same way of importance as the developer itself. It's a matter of time that you will learn that the fixer can have a step forward but not back.

4. If the fixing step is important (and much), its removal has the same importance (or more). If you have followed some suggestions (such as dev & fix times) you should have read about the time film needs to be under running (or changing) water to remove the rest of the what the fixer has done, and the fixer itself. One minute, no matter how "insane" is, won't be enough.

5. The drying step not only means hung the film like a gold medal.

I'm sorry I've written so much
Best

wiltw said:

... using water in lieu of stop bath does change the contrastiness of the resulting negatives!

Click to expand...

Excuse me wiltw,

can you share with us the source of that information, please?
Thank you very much in advance!

I have a 2 litre bottle of stop bath near me when I develope film and I never used it for film ever, it's there for the paper development. I also use five times well shook rinses in my film tank and then it's hung up to dry....Been that way since 1979.

Sounds the main steps are known, but everyone has his own chemicals or methods to follow, and sound all are happy with their methods and it is working, i will go/follow my method or say my steps regardless how others doing with theirs, at the end i feel it doesn't fail much or hard to fail when including the main/must steps.

LAG said:

Excuse me wiltw,
can you share with us the source of that information, please?
Thank you very much in advance!

Click to expand...

Hmm, have not needed to explain this in a verrrryyyy long time, so I hope I am not misleading folks with rusty (and defective) understanding!

Simply put, first consider the B&W negative as the two extremes of density...high density (clearer areas of neg, darker areas of print) and low density (darker areas of neg, whiter areas of print). ...

• With stop bath, in both areas the developer action is stopped virtually immediately...consider this a 'baseline density' comparison example, when all goes according to Hoyle (Rules of playing cards)
• WithOUT stop bath, water more slowly (than using stop bath) dilutes the developer rather than stopping it immediately
  • developer in contact with the high density area of the neg is depleted more rapidly by development of much more silver in the darker areas of the neg,
  • ...while developer more slowly depletes in the low density areas of development so it continues to work and build silver there.

The result of the above, compared to using stop bath

1. Rapidly slowed development (because of depletion) in the darker areas of the neg translates to less silver buildup in neg, so less dense (than using stopbath) which results in and in 'less white' areas of the print
2. Prolonged development in the lighter areas of the neg translates to more silver buildup in the neg which results in 'less dark' areas of the print)

IOW, the density curve is somewhat flattened, less contrast is in the neg and this results in you needing to print with a contrastier grade of paper to result in the correct full range of contrast. But equally bad, is the fact that since the entire tonal curve is compressed (flattened), the differential between two closely similar (but different) tonal areas is reduced as well, so the number of tonal steps in the print seem to be reduced, although the contrast range (white to black) is preserved via the higher contrast print paper.

IN SHORT, especially for the poor bewildered OP, reduce the above mini dissertation to:
"When you do not use stop bath, it subtly drops the contrast of the resulting neg!"

I have not routinely done B&W for a very long time, and besides I had the process down pat so that I did not run into problems, generally speaking. But the photo in post 28 appears to be suffering flaws induced by poor process. Namely (if my diagnostic knowledge is not defective) due to insufficient and/or substandard amounts of agitation...the upper area of the photo appears to have lowered contrast range (lower density shadow areas) compared to the lower parts of the photo. So the developer for the upper area of the photo is depleting, while it is working fine in the lower area of the photo.
Considering that a neg is 'upside down', the lower part of the neg is suffering from developer depletion because of insufficient agitation not bring new developer to that part of the neg, while the upper area of the neg is not depleting because it is getting sufficient agitation to bring new developer in contact with the neg there. Method of agitation and frequency of agitation are both suspect...it could be one, or the other, or both.

TareqPhoto said:

Sounds the main steps are known.

Click to expand...

Well, you should take a look at the thread again! (you don't have to go far away) or perhaps it's me that I'm listening different sounds than you do

TareqPhoto said:

... everyone has his own chemicals or methods to follow, and sound all are happy with their methods and it is working, i will go/follow my method or say my steps regardless how others doing with theirs, at the end i feel it doesn't fail much or hard to fail when including the main/must steps.

Click to expand...

It's very true just like it is also very true that "You will reap what you sow"

Best

wiltw said:

... using water in lieu of stop bath does change the contrastiness of the resulting negatives!

Click to expand...

wiltw said:

Hmm, have not needed to explain this in a verrrryyyy long time, so I hope I am not misleading folks with rusty (and defective) understanding!

Click to expand...

Excuse wiltw

So the source of that information it's you!

wiltw said:

With stop bath, in both areas the developer action is stopped virtually immediately...consider this a 'baseline density' comparison example, when all goes according to Hoyle (Rules of playing cards)

• WithOUT stop bath, water more slowly (than using stop bath) dilutes the developer rather than stopping it immediately
  • developer in contact with the high density area of the neg is depleted more rapidly by development of much more silver in the darker areas of the neg,
  • ...while developer more slowly depletes in the low density areas of development so it continues to work and build silver there.

The result of the above, compared to using stop bath

1. Rapidly slowed development (because of depletion) in the darker areas of the neg translates to less silver buildup in neg, so less dense (than using stopbath) which results in and in 'less white' areas of the print
2. Prolonged development in the lighter areas of the neg translates to more silver buildup in the neg which results in 'less dark' areas of the print)

IOW, the density curve is somewhat flattened, less contrast is in the neg and this results in you needing to print with a contrastier grade of paper to result in the correct full range of contrast. But equally bad, is the fact that since the entire tonal curve is compressed (flattened), the differential between two closely similar (but different) tonal areas is reduced as well, so the number of tonal steps in the print seem to be reduced, although the contrast range (white to black) is preserved via the higher contrast print paper.

IN SHORT, especially for the poor bewildered OP, reduce the above mini dissertation to:
"When you do not use stop bath, it subtly drops the contrast of the resulting neg!"

Click to expand...

Wow, thanks for your time! ... Let me ask you a couple of questions, With or without microdensitometer? Did you use it before the fixing?

Regards

keenmaster486 said:

Should I mix a 1 gallon solution like it says, and then dilute it half water/half solution in the actual tank?

Click to expand...

Just to make sure that you are mixing the chemicals properly, BOTH the dev, (stop if used) and fixer should be diluted OUTSIDE OF THE TANK and then poured in. I'm just saying this you use the words '...in the actual tank' when describing diluting the chemicals.

Also, I don't think it's been mentioned but Ilford's recommendation of washing a film is to take water at about 20C (or 5 degrees either way of your chemical temperature if it's higher), fill the tank and invert 5 times, then empty. Do the same for 10 times then empty and finally 20 times and then empty. This gives a well washed film and saves water.

Full details about washing can be found with this link:

http://www.ilfordphoto.com/assets/20154231237291446.pdf

BTW, I think you done well with your first film overall.

Have fun!

Terry S

wiltw said:

You do not 'have to' use stop bath. But keep in mind that using water in lieu of stop bath does change the contrastiness of the resulting negatives! Depending upon the individual shot, you might or might NOT want to alter the contrastiness of the negative...but that is very advanced subtleties in technique reflected within the Zone System methodology (don't even think about it now!)

Click to expand...

I have to apologize to everyone that too long of an absence from the B&W darkroom took its toll on my memory! The contrast reducing effects I had described were NOT associated with the use vs. non-use of stop bath. Rather, the contrast reduction of the negative is associated with the use of a WATER BATH in which the film is immersed in water while the developer continues to work in the thin areas but depletes in the dense areas.
Since this thread is more about technique for a beginner, those who wish to read more about water bath use in development can read The Negative by Ansel Adams.

wiltw said:

I have to apologize to everyone that too long of an absence from the B&W darkroom took its toll on my memory! The contrast reducing effects I had described were NOT associated with the use vs. non-use of stop bath. Rather, the contrast reduction of the negative is associated with the use of a WATER BATH in which the film is immersed in water while the developer continues to work in the thin areas but depletes in the dense areas.

Click to expand...

Unless you're talking to everyone but me, I should say that IMHO you are again wrong. It's not your lack of memory (nor being sarcastic with her) what will give you the reason with the opposite Water-argument, not everything it's black or white.

Best

Just a tip;

Unless you really need a whole gallon of fixer, then regular (clear) plastic soda bottles are a nice solution for that.
Fixer tend to accumulate "silver-gunk" that will build up on the inner walls of the containers over time, seen as a thin gray haze. A clear soda-bottle is easy to gauge and cheap to change (it also contain the chemicals very well, I've used 1.5L soda-bottles for the past 5-6 years with no issue).

They are easy to clean and prepare and you can always find one, or buy yourself a Coke and use the bottle later ^^

You will need a funnel when pouring back the fixer in these bottles though, but you can pick that up very cheaply at your average dollar-store.

Also, it helps that the containers for your chemicals are completely different from each-other, since it prevents you from taking the wrong bottle and fix before development.
- It does not help your memory though, so you may still, at some point, fix your film before development, it can happen to anyone after a long day ^^

Keep a sign on your door when you insert the film into the canister, saying "Do not enter, I am processing film, back in 1-2 minutes" or similar (a lock is always better).