Developing fault or camera leakage?

WalSto · Tuesday at 11:51 AM

Hi All, greetings from Amsterdam, the Netherlands. I came across these forums, interesting!
I have a question. Do some people recognize this? I remember this issue but forgot the cause. I was away from analogue photography for long.
Not all photos on the film roll (Kodak 400tx) have this. Is it leakage from the camera or is a film developing mistake. I had it developed abroad while traveling in South Africa
Any suggestions?

Thanks!

koraks · Tuesday at 12:01 PM

Welcome aboard @WalSto!

Can you please upload a clear photograph of the actual negative? It's hard/impossible to make out what's going wrong based on a contrast-corrected scan.

Donald Qualls · Tuesday at 12:07 PM

Assuming that's 35 mm, those are either surge marks from the perforations, or bromide drag (which shows a pattern at perforations because there's less of it there). But I agree with Koraks, we'll be more confident if we can see a good photo of the negative, including the non-image area (and ideally part of the two adjacent frames).

WalSto · Tuesday at 12:08 PM

koraks said:
Welcome aboard @WalSto!

Can you please upload a clear photograph of the actual negative? It's hard/impossible to make out what's going wrong based on a contrast-corrected scan.

Yes? You don't see the lighter stripes coming down from the top? I thought that people who recognize this could tell me this.
But I will do that, ok.

WalSto · Tuesday at 12:10 PM

Donald Qualls said:
Assuming that's 35 mm, those are either surge marks from the perforations, or bromide drag (which shows a pattern at perforations because there's less of it there). But I agree with Koraks, we'll be more confident if we can see a good photo of the negative, including the non-image area (and ideally part of the two adjacent frames).

Yes 35mm
I will upload the negative in a better way

WalSto · Tuesday at 12:12 PM

Donald Qualls said:
Assuming that's 35 mm, those are either surge marks from the perforations, or bromide drag (which shows a pattern at perforations because there's less of it there). But I agree with Koraks, we'll be more confident if we can see a good photo of the negative, including the non-image area (and ideally part of the two adjacent frames).

Aha, so a developing problem? I read this on the internet "surge marks generally refer to over agitation / agitating too agressively so that the developer rushes or "surges" through the sprocket holes of the film, and the marks line up w/ that"

Donald Qualls · Tuesday at 12:14 PM

But bromide drag comes from too little agitation, and we can't tell which it is without seeing the whole negative including perforations/borders.

koraks · Tuesday at 1:09 PM

WalSto said:
You don't see the lighter stripes coming down from the top?

I see them but there are several possible explanations. The first thing we'd need to check is whether the problem is there on the actual negatives. Sometimes these problems are scanning artifacts. Then the second question is how the effect may or may not interact with frame edges, the area around the sprocket holes and edge markings on the film. I could jot down a long list of questions and then we could go back & forth on those, but it'll be a whole lot easier if you just upload a picture of the negative strip.

WalSto said:
Aha, so a developing problem?

That cannot be concluded at this point. It's one possible factor. My first impression is that it may be, but if it is, it's not the only problem you have.

djdister · Tuesday at 4:39 PM

Most probably a developing problem, but it would help to upload a scan that goes film edge to film edge instead of a cropped scan.

MattKing · Tuesday at 6:20 PM

To go back in time a bit to an old Kodak publication line:
When it comes to showing us the negatives, "Here's How": https://www.photrio.com/forum/resou...nsparencies-for-troubleshooting-purposes.461/

WalSto · Wednesday at 2:45 AM

Hi, thanks
Here are the negatives.

koraks · Wednesday at 3:16 AM

Right, thanks so much. Can you post a photo of the negatives held to the light at an oblique angle? I'd like to be able to see the color of the film on the emulsion side (this is the non-shiny side).

My first guess is that excessive density in the sky created troubles with the scan. Now the question is whether the density in the sky is indeed excessive and if so, why this is the case.

WalSto · Wednesday at 3:18 AM

koraks said:
Right, thanks so much. Can you post a photo of the negatives held to the light at an oblique angle? I'd like to be able to see the color of the film on the emulsion side (this is the non-shiny side).

My first guess is that excessive density in the sky created troubles with the scan. Now the question is whether the density in the sky is indeed excessive and if so, why this is the case.

I am pretty sure it is surge marks after consulting other photographers.

koraks · Wednesday at 3:31 AM

WalSto said:
I am pretty sure it is surge marks after consulting other photographers.

Surge marks would not interact in that direction with the frame edge. So the angle is exactly wrong. Bromide drag - maybe, but that'd be very odd since there's no developer activity right above the affected area, and the density is the opposite of what bromide drag would look like.

You'll have to first determine whether the defect is in the negative itself. That's not clear at this point and your latest illustration suggests it actually isn't:

But it's hard to be sure at this point.

One possible cause is insufficient fixing, hence my question above to have another look at the negative.

WalSto · Wednesday at 3:33 AM

koraks said:
Surge marks would not interact in that direction with the frame edge. So the angle is exactly wrong. Bromide drag - maybe, but that'd be very odd since there's no developer activity right above the affected area, and the density is the opposite of what bromide drag would look like.

You'll have to first determine whether the defect is in the negative itself. That's not clear at this point and your latest illustration suggests it actually isn't:
View attachment 400610
But it's hard to be sure at this point.

One possible cause is insufficient fixing, hence my question above to have another look at the negative.

Oh that's not what I heard, but I am ok now, pretty sure by other reactions. Thanks

koraks · Wednesday at 5:23 AM

Problems like this can often only be tracked to a specific cause if the negatives are examined properly. Keep that in mind when listening to what other people have to say. Many people are quick to offer possible causes and emphatic in being right. It's good to keep an open mind though; people drop in on Photrio all the time with problems like yours and there are numerous cases where first impressions turned out to be deceptive.

One clue is here in the density between the sprockets that I've emphasized:

This cannot be explained as surge marks, bromide drag etc. This is why I'm cautious in accepting what other people have told you so far. I doubt they're looking closely enough.

Also, overdevelopment comes up as a possible cause of the excess density in the sky, but this is inconsistent with the density on the edge markings (frame numbers etc), which would be darker if the film was overdeveloped. So things aren't adding up yet.

Saganich · Wednesday at 10:35 AM

On overexposed frames the combined factors of agitation technique, time, chemistry, reel type, scanning, etc. will conspire to give odd results. I do it all the time.

Saganich · Wednesday at 10:35 AM

Saganich said:
On overexposed frames the combined factors of agitation technique, time, chemistry, reel type, scanning, camera, etc. will conspire to give odd results. I do it all the time with similar result.

Craig · Wednesday at 11:19 AM

The base doesn't look as clear as it should. You mentioned it was developed in South Africa, did you travel with the film? I'm wondering if it is X ray damage at an airport.

Harry Callahan · Saturday at 9:29 AM

The edge markings are so weak... it looks like the film has been overexposed several stops and pulled in development by several stops...

pentaxuser · Saturday at 12:07 PM

WalSto said:
Hi All, greetings from Amsterdam, the Netherlands. I came across these forums, interesting!
I have a question. Do some people recognize this?

Thanks!

Sorry no but I recognise the smoke signals. Sent by the Dutch contingent of the Sioux? Seriously, I hope we can arrive at a conclusion that can be covered by the evidence we see in front of us

pentaxuser

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