Developing C-41 Color Film w/ D-76 B&W Chemicals

iKokomo

Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2018
Messages
14
Location
USA
Format
35mm
I have never developed film before and I have read that it is best to start off with black and white developing because it is easier than color.

I just bought a large lot of vintage film cameras (over 50 cameras) to clean and sell and there are a lot of half-used rolls of film in them that I will finish using and I want to learn how to develop them. In the lot, there were developing tanks, thermometers and the like.

My question is they are all color C-41 film.
Can I use my D-76 B&W Chemicals that I just got to cross-prosses and develop these?

If yes, are there any specific instructions or issues that I need to be aware of that may be different from developing black and white film?

Also, for people that have done this for years, any tips and tricks you would like to pass along?

This would be my first roll of film ever self-developed and I am excited!!

Thanks for your help!
 

Rudeofus

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
5,081
Location
EU
Format
Medium Format
If you develop typical C-41 film with B&W chemistry, you get a B&W image together with a constant (across the whole area) orange mask. If you try to optically enlarge the images to B&W multigrade paper, this orange mask will interfere with contrast filtration. Typical color film also contains a yellow filter inside, and an antihalation layer, both of which could be made from colloidal silver. If this is the case, then B&W development will leave that silver behind and give very dense images. Hybrid processing after B&W development can deal with orange mask, but not with colloidal filter layers. You can detect colloidal filter/antihalation layers without risking a roll: put the film in fixer and see whether it becomes transparent with just the orange mask.

PS: with or without colloidal silver layers, once you got your C-41 film processed in D-76, and if you then decide "wow, cool image, this would look sooo great in color!", you can rehal bleach that film and reprocess in C-41.
 

David Lyga

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
3,445
Location
Philadelphia
Format
35mm
Here is how to do this. Depending upon how old the film is, you rate it accordingly, giving more exposure as needed. Older film, as well, will require more development time and/or more developer strength.

Basically, you need to develop the film more robustly because of the diminution of silver, but you can still acquire a good negative. There are more steps involved, in that, after fixation you need to 'blix' the film in order to 'bring back' that nice orange mask back into transparency.

I find Dektol superb for doing this; you will have to process films a few times before you nail down your procedure, I suggest you expose a roll, then cut it into segments of a couple of inches (in the dark, or course) so that you will have multiple tries for one roll total (Why waste so much film?) You can start with Dektol diulted about 1 + 19 and work from there, choosing a convenient (ambient?) temp and time (how is 8 minutes?). After the development, stop, and fix, then blix, you will be in a position to determine whether you should modify your Dektol dilution and/or development timing, and film exposure, (but not before after you are finished blixing). You are looking for a good negative that will print well, so, as with B&W, you want shadow detail and good differentiation between highlights and shadows. NOTA BENE: with that orange mask you might have to opt for a bit more contrast in the neg, as that mask can serve to slightly filter your VC paper into a lower grade.

Again, when you process C-41 film as B&W, (yes, even E-6 can be done this basic way) you acquire an extremely dense negative that most will simply discard (because it is so ugly). Holding it up to a light bulb, however, will reveal a real image. Let's say that the film involved is not too old and is rated at ISO 200. So you expose at that speed in your camera, then process as usual in a robust developer, normal stop bath, and normal fixer. You are rewarded with a dense, ugly mess that depresses you greatly. Now comes the magic: the blix.

Make a bleach solution (which keeps forever in a bottle, if not always kept in bright sunlight). I use volume measurements but for this, potassium ferricyanide, one gram does equal one mL so it does not matter. Mix five mL of potassium ferricyande into 500mL of water (i.e., 1 mL per 100mL of water). That is your bleach and, kept separate, keeps forever. To make blix, you will add bleach solution to 'paper strength' fixer at one part to one part, but only just before using it, as the combination will not keep for more than maybe 30 minutes. This blix serves to remove all that fog density in order to reveal the image as you wish for printing. You keep that film in the blix (agitate normally) until you see a brilliant orange mask emerge (anywhere from a few minutes to ten minutes, so be careful). This is important: you want to watch everything visually, so you might be advised to cut a roll length of after-processed film into many smaller segments and do this blixing in a shallow dish, making certain to agitate in a uniform fashion (in full room light) as you don't want one part of the film to blix faster than another part. Excess blixing will remove ALL density. (You STOP the blixing procedure by dunking the film back into the fixer, or simply use a water bath.) With experience you might dilute this blix further in order to create a suitable blix time.

Much frustration and much effort will be needed with trials in order to achieve what you want on a consistent basis. Many out there do not like my efforts because they require thinking outside of the box and don't heed to the tried and true ideologies. But, done properly, you will achieve 'Golgonda' with beautiful negatives which capture clouds without needing other filtration. Older films, years older perhaps, require both more exposure and more robust development. For these, use stronger Dektol, maybe 1 + 9 or so. You might even need longer fix times, but remember, when fixation is complete, but before blix, the negative WILL BE DENSE. You can best judge completed fixation by looking at that negative with a light bulb behind it and a magnifying glass next to your eyeball. Good luck. - David Lyga
 
Last edited:

Ko.Fe.

Member
Joined
Apr 29, 2014
Messages
3,209
Location
MiltON.ONtario
Format
Digital
I developed some old C-41 and often use old ECN2 films in HC-110 and Rodinal. Nothing fancy, just strait BW developing procedure. I'm using BW films developing times with matching ISO.

But what is vintage these days? In the past it was 50 years or something. If cameras are twenty years old and it is C-41, I would first try it in C-41 kit.
It if is 50 years old, then here is special procedure how to retrieve the images from this old films. It is different from strait C-41 film in BW chemicals procedure.
I know one person in Miami (he was one of the Miami street photography contest organizer) who does this vintage film (like 70 yo films) developing. It is tricky procedure with trials and low temperatures involved.
The problem is in the language, we are both FSU and not using English.
http://amirko.livejournal.com/251225.html

This is what he wrote in English about vintage films developing ten years ago:
http://emirco.net/photo/projects/OldFilm/Old_film_processing.htm
 

barzune

Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
281
Location
Ontario
Format
Multi Format
I'm curious: if, after developing the film ( as above ) to a heavily-masked B&W negative, I was to want to develop it in colour, what would be the process, or would that even be possible?
 

Rudeofus

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
5,081
Location
EU
Format
Medium Format
@barzune : bleach all silver with a rehal bleach (think 10 g/l Potassium Ferricyanide, 10 g/l Potassium Bromide), wash, expose to broad daylight, then run through C-41 process starting with CD step.
 
OP
OP

iKokomo

Member
Joined
Jan 11, 2018
Messages
14
Location
USA
Format
35mm
I heard from somewhere else that the Caffenol process might work great for this? I have heard of that developing process. Is this a viable option for what I am trying to do? If Yes, Any tips and tricks to Caffenol that might be different from using commercial chemicals? Thanks!
 

barzune

Member
Joined
Mar 28, 2010
Messages
281
Location
Ontario
Format
Multi Format
Thanks, Rodeofus, I'll have to try that out.. I have one colour roll of cruise shots that got mixed in with the B&W at darkroom time,and I figured it was lost forever.
Now there's hope.
 

Rudeofus

Member
Joined
Aug 13, 2009
Messages
5,081
Location
EU
Format
Medium Format
There are many folks who love Caffenol, both for its looks and for philosophical reasons, and people like jnanian have shown great work with (mostly large format) films developed in some variant of Caffenol. But let's face it: Caffenol does not even match D-76 in terms of performance, see samples for TMAX 100, Tri-X and FP4 here. Grain is profoundly more visible, and you have to increase contrast a lot to get at least close to D-76 and HC-110 in terms of shadow detail (look especially at the Tri-X samples), and sharpness is nothing to write home about either.
 

Juan Galán

Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2020
Messages
4
Location
47009, Valladolid
Format
Analog


Hello David,

I am new on the platform, and I came across your post and knowledge of film processing. I have been developing old exposed films for a few weeks with good and bad results.
My main doubt is, considering the color film (C-41) is really old, which process will give more chances to get images? B&W or regular C-41? I wonder also if C-41 at a lower temperature like 30º provides more chances to get images than the process at 38º...

Thanks in advance
 

David Lyga

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
3,445
Location
Philadelphia
Format
35mm
First, you have to quantify better than that, Juan.

HOW old? HOW was the film stored? What speed is on the box? What speed was it shot at?

For the C-41 process, lowering the temp will not help matters. Best to keep it at 100 F (38 C).
 

Juan Galán

Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2020
Messages
4
Location
47009, Valladolid
Format
Analog
First, you have to quantify better than that, Juan.

HOW old? HOW was the film stored? What speed is on the box? What speed was it shot at?

For the C-41 process, lowering the temp will not help matters. Best to keep it at 100 F (38 C).

Thanks for your quick response, David.

It is a lot of rolls of exposed film that I was given, very old. No clue of how they were stored and the speed they were shot at. It is a lottery all the time I develop this type of film, so my doubt was if there is a process that would increase the odds to get images from them... that is why I am considering develop them with HC-110 and see how it goes...
 

Wallendo

Subscriber
Joined
Mar 23, 2013
Messages
1,409
Location
North Carolina
Format
35mm
A general rule of thumb is to develop C-41 using published times for HP5+. If you are just curious to see what is on the film, I would go this route.

On the other hand, developing C-41 as black and white may not be a good way to learn processing. The negatives you end up with will be quite dense and difficult to visually identify. Even if you see problems with the negative, it may be hard to determine if these are due to processing or due to old film.

According to our late expert PE, an acid fixer might help: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...r-before-developing.85431/page-2#post-1953284 although for E-6, the same general principal should apply. I personally have never tried this
 

Juan Galán

Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2020
Messages
4
Location
47009, Valladolid
Format
Analog

Thanks for your reply Wallendo!

Well, I have develop color film (C-41 and E-6) with HC-110 1:32 20º 9min, 8 rapid fixer and the results were good. A second time with a C-41 roll and same formula I got nothing.
Developing color film with its respective process C-41, sometimes I get images and sometimes nothing at all. So I wonder if HC-110 or C-41 (colortec) provide different odds to get images..

Sorry for my ignorance, I don't get "develop C-41 using published times for HP5+", what do you mean?

Thanks for your time
 

David Lyga

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
3,445
Location
Philadelphia
Format
35mm
My suggestion to you is this, for EACH roll test one or two frames and then cut it out of the camera and save the rest of the roll. Expose at about 1/4 box speed and process in C-41, maybe giving 25% more development time. You need to determine with each roll, individually, what is what and this is the ONLY way to be certain. If you get results, go from there, If there is TOO MUCH density in the image (NOT counting the fog) you have learned that you have either over exposed, over developed, or both. If you want to go the B&W route, I would use either Dektol or HC-110. You need a POWERFUL developer in order to process the color as B&W. Then, after fix, you need Farmer's Reducer in order to get the base part of the negative clean. The final result on the one or two frames will indicate what you did wrong or right. You next test of a couple of frames will further pinpoint what you need to do to get more accurate with what you have. It is not easy to deal with the unknown, but little by little you will zero onto the correct process. - David Lyga
 

MattKing

Moderator
Moderator
Joined
Apr 24, 2005
Messages
53,287
Location
Delta, BC Canada
Format
Medium Format
I don't get "develop C-41 using published times for HP5+", what do you mean?
Welcome to Photrio.
I understand that phrase to mean: If you are going to use a black and white film developer to develop C-41 colour negative films, the developing times for HP5+ in that developer will work reasonably well.
 

David Lyga

Member
Joined
Nov 25, 2007
Messages
3,445
Location
Philadelphia
Format
35mm
When developing C-41 film in B&W chemicals, you MUST use a high power developer or else you will have a very weak image. No, D-76 is not adequate. Dektol and HC-110 are. Consider using a dilution that is stronger than that needed for HP5+ / T MAX 400 processing. - David Lyga
 
Cookies are required to use this site. You must accept them to continue using the site. Learn more…