Developing B&W Film is An Exact (Or Inexact) Art

cliveh · Dec 17, 2014

Sirius Glass said:
Deionized water is $2.49 a gallon and PhotoFlo is $7.99 http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?Ntt=photoflo&N=0&InitialSearch=yes&sts=ma&Top+Nav-Search= for 16 ounces that dilute 1:200.

Because it has more purity and simplicity as a liquid for use with film.

Kirks518 · Dec 17, 2014

To hijack just a bit...

Can PhotoFlo be reused? I've been doing it as a one-shot, but only because I'm new and don't want to increase my chances of screwing something up.

Sirius Glass · Dec 17, 2014

Yes, PhotoFlo can be reused. I have reused it a lot, but I ran it through a funnel with a screen to filter it. After awhile it should be thrown out because it gets sludge on the bottom of the bottle. I have not had bacteria growth but others on APUG have had that happen. As a result I only reuse it a few times if at all.

cliveh · Dec 17, 2014

Sirius Glass said:
Yes, PhotoFlo can be reused. I have reused it a lot, but I ran it through a funnel with a screen to filter it. After awhile it should be thrown out because it gets sludge on the bottom of the bottle. I have not had bacteria growth but others on APUG have had that happen. As a result I only reuse it a few times if at all.

Sludge on the bottom of the bottle and bacteria growth

NB23 · Dec 17, 2014

Guys, the way to use photoflo correctly is this way: 2 drops in a tank full of fresh water.
Agitate or let sit for 30 seconds.

Dry.

No pre-mixing.

A 7.99$ bottle will last you 1000 rolls of film.

Sirius Glass · Dec 17, 2014

I measure 5mland add one liter of water in a graduated cylinder and mix it. "2 drops in a tank full of fresh water" is just asking for problems. If you do not believe me, ask PE.

NB23 · Dec 17, 2014

Sirius Glass said:
I measure 5mland add one liter of water in a graduated cylinder and mix it. "2 drops in a tank full of fresh water" is just asking for problems. If you do not believe me, ask PE.

"Dear PE,
I have a question. I've developed 4000 rolls in my life until now. Maybe Five Thousand, can't be sure. But someone on the internet has told me I've been wrong all along. Will my so far developed films suddenly go bad or have I been crazy lucky all along?"

Photo Engineer · Dec 17, 2014

I say "if it works for you, use it!" but it may not be exactly correct. Use the bottle instructions and you cannot go wrong, but 2 drops in a tank may not be right depending on water. For example, it may work all the time for soft water and fail drastically for someone with hard water.

So, there are gotchas out there! Don't get caught by one unexpectedly.

Example: Often, when visiting the Formulary in MT, I get slightly different results with processes and emulsion making and coating. I have to adjust things for their wild caught water compared to my city bred water here. So, I practice for a day before giving a workshop there or doing any serious "R&D" there for them. Too expensive.

Also, 4000 rolls? Pshaw! A mere drop in the bucket! And many of mine were tested to destruction to insure that I had "done it right" or "gotten the right formula"!

PE

cjbecker · Dec 17, 2014

My processing is to exacting standards, but my exposure is by eye.

Bill Burk · Dec 17, 2014

A splootch in roughly 16 ounces (small 5x7 inch) tray of water has been working for me.

I draw sheets through the tray, (or see-saw the roll film through it) just before hanging to dry.

Inaccurate measure might be working for me because I am using reverse-osmosis filtered water.

So I get the advantages of both... de-ionized water AND Photo-Flo. But I have enough Photo-Flo to last me quite a while at this rate.

Rick A · Dec 18, 2014

I stopped using Photo-Flo years ago. I switched to Edwal LFN, it requires much less product to mix working solution, doesn't build up on equipment, rinses away clean without scrubbing. It can even be added to developer to stop foaming and helps release air bells from film. I use one drop per 16 fl. ounces distilled water, it can be reused, I have a bottle mixed nearly a year ago and nothing is growing in my bottle like I used to get with Photo-Flo. I use both plastic and stainless reels and no issues with the plastic gumming up. I still have the original bottle purchased in 1986, I probably will finally empty it first part of next year.

Richard S. (rich815) · Dec 18, 2014

I tried switching to Edwal LFN based on good reviews here. Left my film streaky or just did not do the job and I had spots. No idea why it does not work for me. I switched back to photo flo.

Doremus Scudder · Dec 18, 2014

Sirius Glass said:
I measure 5mland add one liter of water in a graduated cylinder and mix it. "2 drops in a tank full of fresh water" is just asking for problems. If you do not believe me, ask PE.

Actually, "drops," as a unit of measure for a given liquid of a given viscosity, are fairly accurate. Medicines here in Europe are commonly sold in dropper bottles and the doses are given as a number of drops to be mixed with water and then taken. For PhotoFlo "two drops in a tank full of fresh water" may be just the right dilution depending on the size of the tank. Kodak gives "capful" dilutions in the PhotoFlo directions: 1 capful mixes up to 1/2 U.S. gallon; 1/2 capful to one U.S. quart. For 16 oz., it wouldn't be hard to figure out the number of drops...

It may well be that two drops per tankful is a weaker than recommended dilution. That said, many who are using rather soft and mineral-free water for processing find that a less-than-recommended dilution works just fine. I, for one, tend to use a half-strength dilution of PhotoFlo in distilled water for my final rinse.

Best,

Doremus

StoneNYC · Dec 18, 2014

Richard Sintchak (rich815) said:
I tried switching to Edwal LFN based on good reviews here. Left my film streaky or just did not do the job and I had spots. No idea why it does not work for me. I switched back to photo flo.

It left patterns on the base of the film so I asked and it was suggested I was using way too much, so I reduced it to 2 drops and now it works excellently, based on the above post (above your response) I'm wondering how the dilution compares to Kodak, I got a bottle of PhotoFlo and was going to switch after my Edwal LFN was done and just refil the Edwal bottle with photoFlo, I thought it was essentially the same thing with the same dilution, but guessing that's not true? Well I'll find out soon I'm almost out.

Truzi · Dec 18, 2014

I made the mistake of adding it to my developing tank at the end of the process. The next time I used the tank, bubbles came out as I filled it with developer.

It didn't hurt anything, but it took a lot of washing to get rid of the foaming.

Photo Engineer · Dec 18, 2014

Photo Flo is non-ionic, but many other surfactant rinses can be ionic. This changes the properties of the film.

I advise care in use of ionic materials.

PE

pdeeh · Dec 18, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
This changes the properties of the film.

I've often seen you warn against ionic surfactants, PE, so perhaps this is a good opportunity to ask Which properties change, and how, and what the deleterious effects are.

Photo Engineer · Dec 18, 2014

Ok, non ionic surfactants dry down to a neutral organic material which is non-crystalline, and more like a glass. Ionic surfactants have charges such as S- and Na+. Now, when you have water with salt (Ionic) and dry it down it leaves a solid that you can see. Ionic surfactants can dry down and leave a haze.

In addition, there are S+ and SO4= type surfactants that can be used. All of the ionic surfactants can enter the body and do some sort of biochemical change to our metabolism. And so, a baby chewing on film ingests some of the surfactant (of any of the 3 types), but the one in Photo Flo has been selected to be harmless (AFAIK). The surfactant in Photo Flo 1200 was harmful and was taken off the market some years ago.

And so, unless the company has done R&D, they cannot assure you of the qualities of their surfactant. They may as well pack dish soap! It is an unknown and not necessarily bad. You have to be the judge of that -- but it will come after the fact. EK did the work up front as did Ilford and other photo product companies.

PE

pdeeh · Dec 18, 2014

Ah thank you, that's beautifully clear.

I have often wondered whether washing tanks and reels in ordinary washing-up liquid (what you call "dish soap" in the US) can leave contaminants that might affect things the next time they are used (even after thorough rinsing). The label on the one I use says it contains anionic and non-ionic surfactants.

(All my films get a final rinse in DI water + Ilfotol at Ilford's recommended dilution, btw, and they always look perfect - since I stopped messing with "drops" and started following the manufacturer's instructions that is )

OptiKen · Dec 18, 2014

Every time I 'screw-up' with inaccurate measuring or temps off or forgetting the time, I remind myself that 'it's not rocket-science'. It is pretty forgiving and while the results may not earn me any money, they generally are still pretty good and most of the time not really noticeable.

Sirius Glass · Dec 18, 2014

I found that Edwal LFN and PhotoFlo accomplish the same thing and out use them interchangeably.

nworth · Dec 18, 2014

Tom Bertilsson explained the situation best. Practice will iron out the errors and lead to consistency. This shows that film can take considerable abuse and still give a quite acceptable image. Small to moderate errors usually still give something that works, but you may not get a few shots that require more critical development. If you get into the darkroom enough (I don't), you develop consistent and effective methods. As for the pictures, it's hard to tell from scans, but they look just a little underdeveloped, But they are still quite usable and well within the printable range.

Photo Engineer · Dec 18, 2014

pdeeh said:
Ah thank you, that's beautifully clear.

I have often wondered whether washing tanks and reels in ordinary washing-up liquid (what you call "dish soap" in the US) can leave contaminants that might affect things the next time they are used (even after thorough rinsing). The label on the one I use says it contains anionic and non-ionic surfactants.

(All my films get a final rinse in DI water + Ilfotol at Ilford's recommended dilution, btw, and they always look perfect - since I stopped messing with "drops" and started following the manufacturer's instructions that is )

Dish soaps also contain coloring agents and scents. These can not only have adverse effects on film, but the scent leaves them smelling very nice.

PE

StoneNYC · Dec 18, 2014

Photo Engineer said:
Dish soaps also contain coloring agents and scents. These can not only have adverse effects on film, but the scent leaves them smelling very nice.

PE

Thanks for all this info, interesting.

There's a guy on here that exclusively has used dish soap for 20 years and seems to think it's fine, but time will tell... I will switch to Photo Flo when the edwal is out and maybe by then my images will be worth enough to worry about it haha!

Truzi · Dec 18, 2014

I have to wonder if Photo Flo would help in the dishwasher - we always have spots on our glasses, regardless of what detergent we use.

Developing B&W Film is An Exact (Or Inexact) Art

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