Developing arista ortho lith 3.0 film. My approach and questions/help needed

[Candlejack]

So I know... from what I read ortho lith is notorious fickle. Ive been using a crown graflex and a dark yellow filter, treating it like ISO 1 or 2. I feel like this is helping me start getting more sky detail. Anywho.

The recipe calls for 18 mins in hc110 1+200, 18 min, slight sloshing every 3 mins.

Im using the taco method, L110 (a sort of HC110 clone) 5 ml to 1L, phased out the sloshing, except for a slosh at 9 mins.

Should I start experimenting with shortening my development time? I know the film is super contrasty, but based on this photos below (over black mat) are they over developed?

I know tray developing would let me see the process, but no darkroom available at this moment.

 

[mohmad khatab]

So I know... from what I read ortho lith is notorious fickle. Ive been using a crown graflex and a dark yellow filter, treating it like ISO 1 or 2. I feel like this is helping me start getting more sky detail. Anywho.

The recipe calls for 18 mins in hc110 1+200, 18 min, slight sloshing every 3 mins.

Im using the taco method, L110 (a sort of HC110 clone) 5 ml to 1L, phased out the sloshing, except for a slosh at 9 mins.

Should I start experimenting with shortening my development time? I know the film is super contrasty, but based on this photos below (over black mat) are they over developed?

I know tray developing would let me see the process, but no darkroom available at this moment.

Hi, I have absolutely no experience with this type of film.
I had posted an announcement in the Egyptian analogue photography community that any beginner photographer who succeeds in buying a development tank, I will give him a black and white chemistry sample as a gift,,
He came (a young amateur photographer who is a beginner). He managed to buy a small development tank and came to me happy and brought this tank with him so that I could see it,,

I gave him a small sample from the developer (Kalogen) along with a similar amount of (Fixer), as a kind of gratification for him.
- After a few weeks, I found this young man who published these pictures and wrote in the post phrases in which he thanked me and praised me, and it turned out that the movie is of the type (ORTHO) you are talking about, and he said that he found it by chance and did not know what it was The difference between (ORTHO) and (PAN)
But in the end he got these good pictures.
He soaked the film in distilled water first for 10 minutes.
Dilution ratio 1:100
13 minutes
18°C - Semi-continuous agitation
Developer ( Kalogen )

According to my opinion and according to my point of view which is of no value.
ORTHO movies don't like a five-star developer like HC110 or Rodinal, I guess there's no common understanding between that emulsion and those fancy developers.
I think he prefers only cheap and poor developers.
A poor man does not like to marry a rich woman, there will be no mutual understanding between them.
(I like literary similes sometimes.)

 

[Candlejack]

Awesome! Thank you for your response. Im not familiar with other developer, but I have read that people have tried dektol, a paper developer, to moderate success. If i get another developer.. maybe ilford multigrade paper liquid may be the way to experiment?
(Ill look up the one you mentioned and see if its available in the US)

 

[DREW WILEY]

Dektol gives miserable results, unless you deliberately want a blotchy funky look. I've had way better luck with HC-110 diluted 1:7 from stock (which itself is 1:3 from concentrate). Don't know about the very latest version of HC-110. Better yet, use an ordinary pan film! Ortho Litho is a headache for con-tone imaging.

What use is a yellow filter? It's not going to differentiate much, and will mostly just yield longer exposure netural density because otho litho is only blue and green sensitive (about 75% blue sensitive, and 25% green). If you're trying to bring out white clouds against a blue sky, you'd be better off using a deep green filter.

 

[Candlejack]

Dektol gives miserable results, unless you deliberately want a blotchy funky look. I've had way better luck with HC-110 diluted 1:7 from stock (which itself is 1:3 from concentrate). Don't know about the very latest version of HC-110. Better yet, use an ordinary pan film! Ortho Litho is a headache for con-tone imaging.

What use is a yellow filter? It's not going to differentiate much, and will mostly just yield longer exposure netural density because otho litho is only blue and green sensitive (about 75% blue sensitive, and 25% green). If you're trying to bring out white clouds against a blue sky, you'd be better off using a deep green filter.

Yup yup its a total headache.. but is there a panchromatic film I can display like an ambrotype?

 

[mmerig]

Why not use the ortho film without a yellow filter? +1 as Drew says, The early plates recorded little to no sky detail.

I use Ilford Ortho, develop it in ID 11 1:1. nit sure if it has the ambrotype look, or could have it, but it is easy to work with.

 

[mohmad khatab]

Awesome! Thank you for your response. Im not familiar with other developer, but I have read that people have tried dektol, a paper developer, to moderate success. If i get another developer.. maybe ilford multigrade paper liquid may be the way to experiment?
(Ill look up the one you mentioned and see if its available in the US)

Was this response directed to me?
If so.
This developer that I told you about, I think, is not available for sale as a commercial product, and it is prepared manually from scratch. In fact, it is very economical in terms of cost. If you want to save a lot of money then preparing this developer will be the best option.
I know that making a developer from scratch is probably not in your plans.
But I just wanted to share with you the information I have.
If you were in Egypt, I would give you a lot of this developer for free. I have one liter, and you can imagine that the dilution ratio is 1:100, which means that every 3 ml they can develop one roll.

 

[Craig75]

You can try keep cutting development time - do a sequence of 5, 10, 15 mins and see what happens.

Then you can try cutting dilution and repeating sequence

But I think you are probably just better getting Ilford ortho if you want ortho film. Lot easier than trying to get pictorial contrast out of lith film.

 

[Candlejack]

Why not use the ortho film without a yellow filter? +1 as Drew says, The early plates recorded little to no sky detail.

I use Ilford Ortho, develop it in ID 11 1:1. nit sure if it has the ambrotype look, or could have it, but it is easy to work with.

Sounds good. Ill remove the filter. Should I bother fiddling with a green filter?

Ill have to look up ilford ortho. Hopefully the make it to fit 4x5 holders

 

[Candlejack]

Was this response directed to me?
If so.
This developer that I told you about, I think, is not available for sale as a commercial product, and it is prepared manually from scratch. In fact, it is very economical in terms of cost. If you want to save a lot of money then preparing this developer will be the best option.
I know that making a developer from scratch is probably not in your plans.
But I just wanted to share with you the information I have.
If you were in Egypt, I would give you a lot of this developer for free. I have one liter, and you can imagine that the dilution ratio is 1:100, which means that every 3 ml they can develop one roll.

Thank you, I appreciate the gesture! I dont think I have much space for many more chemicals atm for had mixing developer .

 

[Candlejack]

You can try keep cutting development time - do a sequence of 5, 10, 15 mins and see what happens.

Then you can try cutting dilution and repeating sequence

But I think you are probably just better getting Ilford ortho if you want ortho film. Lot easier than trying to get pictorial contrast out of lith film.

I did a 9 min, 12 min, 15 min last night. I like the 12 and 15. Here they are below

 

[Candlejack]

9min 12 min second 15 min third. Photographed over a black mat.

 

[DREW WILEY]

Those examples above don't look like con-tone images at all. An ordinary A&B lith developer could have been used for that kind of look, if that is what you're after.

 

[Candlejack]

Those examples above don't look like con-tone images at all. An ordinary A&B lith developer could have been used for that kind of look, if that is what you're after.

Hmm. Yea Im trying to get a con tone.

 

[Candlejack]

Those examples above don't look like con-tone images at all. An ordinary A&B lith developer could have been used for that kind of look, if that is what you're after.

Do you think I am possibly overdeveloping or underdeveloping?

 

[DREW WILEY]

You're under-exposing plus over-developing.

 

[mmerig]

Sounds good. Ill remove the filter. Should I bother fiddling with a green filter?

Ill have to look up Ilford ortho. Hopefully the make it to fit 4x5 holders

Yes, Ilford makes it in 4 by 5 (that's what I mostly use). It is hard to get sometimes though, because I think Ilford only makes a run every two years. There seems to be plenty around now.

 

[Candlejack]

You're under-exposing plus over-developing.

Ok cool beans, Ill play with it some more ! Its cheap enough to run tons of tests.

The ilford looks super expensive!! 2 dollars a sheet expensive. Guh

 

[Rich Ullsmith]

You don't need a darkroom! Buy a red safelight so you can see what's going on!

 

[grainyvision]

Hi, I've pretty much written a small book on this topic. See here: https://grainy.vision/blog/ortho-litho-reference
Uneven development is a huge risk with this film, especially with sheet film. Good luck and feel free to ask any question, though I haven't messed with ortho litho very much for in-camera usage in over a year now

 

[grainyvision]

Yup yup its a total headache.. but is there a panchromatic film I can display like an ambrotype?

Also yes. Here is my best example of this. Exposed in darkroom from slide film, and developed lith printing style probably using a custom developer. It's hard to get a print like this with bright highlights and normal contrast. Also note the actual negative over a lightpad is orange, but when placed over a black sheet will cause an inversion, including that orange color to change to the blue seen here. I did not do any toning

edit: for in camera usage, the biggest problem with lith printing is that it requires a lot of exposure. An image like this would probably require shooting at 0.1 or even slower ISO, with no filtration

 

[Candlejack]

Hi, I've pretty much written a small book on this topic. See here: https://grainy.vision/blog/ortho-litho-reference
Uneven development is a huge risk with this film, especially with sheet film. Good luck and feel free to ask any question, though I haven't messed with ortho litho very much for in-camera usage in over a year now

I didnt get photrio notifications about your posts, but tomorrow Im going to read through your small book!

(Spent the day busting a pipe in the bathroom. Ugh!)

 

[Candlejack]

You don't need a darkroom! Buy a red safelight so you can see what's going on!

Looking at red safelights. Should I snag a bulb from B&h or should i be looking at other bulbs?

 

[Silverinsunlight]

So I know... from what I read ortho lith is notorious fickle. Ive been using a crown graflex and a dark yellow filter, treating it like ISO 1 or 2. I feel like this is helping me start getting more sky detail. Anywho.

The recipe calls for 18 mins in hc110 1+200, 18 min, slight sloshing every 3 mins.

Im using the taco method, L110 (a sort of HC110 clone) 5 ml to 1L, phased out the sloshing, except for a slosh at 9 mins.

Should I start experimenting with shortening my development time? I know the film is super contrasty, but based on this photos below (over black mat) are they over developed?

I know tray developing would let me see the process, but no darkroom available at this moment.

About 25 years ago I got acceptable results with the previous generation of this lith film by using Hubl Paste 1:70 for a few minutes (no notes on time, just dilution) in a tray with slow constant agitation and red light to judge development. I used a four minute pre-soak with distilled water. My negative is brown, but printable. I shot at an EI of about 4 in my Speed Graphic.

I'm going to revisit this now, as ordinary film has gotten very expensive, and I mainly photograph non-moving objects.