Developer Volume, more ore less

[daveandiputra]

Hi All,
in the Darkroom cookbook, Steve Anchell wrote that more developer is better. while on http://www.rogerandfrances.com/hinttip.html no.24 suggest more air space, where i translate as less volume. any word on this from the APUG knowledge pool?

FYI my normal developing method used is a one roll on a two reel tank 500ml with 300ml developer (1:50 Parodinal) only used it for two time and actually haven't found any detrimental effect.

i know i should try it out but dont have any film right now, and the thought just leap into my mind.

best regards,

Dave

 

[Gerald C Koch]

As an example, I routinely use 240 ml of either Rodinal or HC-110 1+49 in a single roll SS tank. To barely cover the reel completely requires 235 ml. If there is a large air space in a tank you run the risk of surge marks caused by air and developer sloshing through the reel. I would recommend Kodak's method for agitation. Constant agitation for the first minute and then 2 inversions with a twist of the wrist per minute.

 

[Bob-D659]

You need some air in the tank and enough developer to cover the reel plus enough active solution to develop the film. More is better as the dev won't become exhausted. Too much more and the dev won't move around when inverting the tank, leading to uneven development. Just barely enough liquid, and you will have bubbles sticking to the top edges of the film as there isn't enough hydrostatic pressure to float them up.

A 1/4" or 6mm of dev on top of the reel is plenty, put reel in tank, add water until reel in under water by 1/4", measure the volume of water. Or if a plastic tank, read the volume numbers on the bottom.

 

[daveandiputra]

Hi,
Actually why I think that maybe I use to little is on the darkroom cookbook, suggest using double the minimum to cover 80 square inch of film which is 250ml, and that would means 500ml the full capacity of my tank with the developer.

My agitation method is one minute constant, and ten seconds every one minute after that. It requires 500ml of developer to cover the whole two reel, but as One of the reels is actually broken ( I only put it in to stop the film loaded reel from moving to much when agitated) i use only 300ml thats actually cover more than the film loaded reel. So I guess that should be enough?

I actually want to try minimum agitation (first minute constant. And 10 sec every three minutes) for my next roll, maybe I'll try it with 400ml of developer then.

 

[pentaxuser]

OP, I think the Roger Hicks comment you are referring to concerns leaving enough room for agitation. He gives the example of inverting a full bottle of orange juice to see how much movement there is in the juice then doing the same with a bottle that leaves a space at the top and seeing how much more movement there is. Was this the example you are referring to?

The Steve Anchell reference comes up on APUG periodically when an orginal poster(OP) asks if S Anchell is suggesting that much more developer is needed than would be needed to cover the film.

Provided that the quantity required to cover the film doesn't contain less developer than is required to develop the film without developer exhaustion then I can see no reason why more developer is needed provided it covers the film.

So is S Anchell actually suggesting that if you have a 250ml tank which covers a 35mm film you throw it away and get a tank which can hold say 350/400 mls?

If he is saying this then what reasons does he give?

Thanks

pentaxuser

 

[ic-racer]

My experience is that more developer volume and/or concentrate can solve many uneven development problems.

 

[sewarion]

I have read S. Anchell's suggestion as well. In my experience, however, using 300ml of solution per 35mm film is sufficient for me, i never had any problems with uneven development. I am using a Paterson tank, the suggestion on the bottom is 290 per film. For convenience and to be on the safe side i am giving it the 10ml extra for 300ml.

As far as Anchell's suggestion is concerned, i think it might refer to some types of developers which are more prone to exhaustion than others, or maybe when it comes to more sever pushing. From my experience, FX-39, D-76 and Microphen do not require any extra amounts of solution.

cheers,
sewarion

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Some of the statements in Anchell's book I take cum grano salis. There were too many errors in the first edition to foster any degree of faith in the content.

 

[daveandiputra]

hi all
"So is S Anchell actually suggesting that if you have a 250ml tank which covers a 35mm film you throw it away and get a tank which can hold say 350/400 mls?"
On the book ( third edition) anchell suggest thath to cover the film it is at least 250ml stock developer ( he use d76 as example) and suggest double that for safety. so if a two reels tank with 500ml capacity, to make it safe only one reel should be loaded.
Of course as Ian C suggest even a fullcapacity tank still have some air space, but wether that is sufficient I can't tell.

As I stated before my current usage is 300ml of 1:50 parodinal on a 450ml tank, eventhough I still don't find bad effect, but the reading makes me wonder If I use more as anchell suggest there could be a advantage on the quality.

 

[Ian Grant]

Steve's comments tally with Kodak's recommendations, the issue is with highly dilute developers where exhaustion will limit the development of the highlight areas where too little developer is used.

So a dev like Xtol or D76/ID-11 at Full strength or even 1+1 may be ok but at 1+3 more developer volume is needed. Same goes for Rodinal at 1+50 compared to 1+25. Agfa published a minimun volume of Rodinal concentrate that should be used per film, from memory I think it was 7ml so at 1+50 that's 350ml per film.

Ian

 

[daveandiputra]

Hi Ian, I've heard of that minimal concentrate needed for rodinal, but been hearing it varies from 5ml to 10ml. My current use now is 6ml for making 300ml. I'm planning to try 400ml later and look forward to seeing if there will be any difference.

 

[trexx]

Agfa published a minimun volume of Rodinal concentrate that should be used per film, from memory I think it was 7ml so at 1+50 that's 350ml per film.

Ian

When I need to use use 350ml in my 250ml tank because the developer would be too dilute. I make up the 350ml, putting 250 in the tank. After about a third of the time, poor off 100ml and add the fresh. If times are over 10min. I dump another 100 and add back the developer from the first dump.