Developer temperature vs grain.

[marciofs]

I have always developed my negative with developer at 20C.

I wonder if I develope my negatives with the developer in lower temperature it would acentuate less the grain.

So is there any relation on developer temperature and grain look?

 

[Bill Burk]

Hi marciofs,

I think 20C is the best temperature, lower temperatures would change things, but I don't know if it would be better.

There is a lot of good information about how to get the least graininess. You can start the discussion by saying what you are doing and how it looks to you. Are you shooting medium format, 100 speed film and finding the grain objectionable on 16x20 prints? Those kinds of details will help this be a great discussion.

I find myself shooting 4x5 when I want less grain (and more definition) than 35mm. And I shoot half-frame or 110 when I want more grain. In other words I make obvious changes when I want to make noticeable changes.

 

[gone]

Depends on which film and developer you're using. If you're using Diafine it won't do much one way or the other, but you're probably not using that. Are you talking about lowering the temps and using the same developing times, or are you going to adjust the times to account for the lower temps? How you expose the film will affect grain as well. There's quite a few variables that will lessen or increase grain. Film choice, how you rate the film's ISO, exposure variables, temps and times, developer choice, agitation scheme, etc. It's all interdependent.

 

[DanielOB]

No noticeable grain change with temperature different than 20 c. You can go up 5 deg and down 5 deg. It change developing time. Beyond that limit you can damage the film emulsion.

 

[Gerald C Koch]

Each developing agent has its own rate constant which is effected by temperature. For a developer like D-72 which contains a soft working (low contrast) developing agent metol and a hard working (high contrast) agent hydroquinone will change the overall contrast the developer will produce. So varying the temperature too far away from the recommended 20C will effect how a developer behaves. Developers containing a single developing agent like D-23 are not effected in this manner by temperature.

 

[polyglot]

I frequently see assertions that film will look less grainy if you use Rodinal at 18C instead of 20C, but I've never verified it. It generally devolves to a shouting match with no evidence provided either way, and explanations being a bit handwavy.

 

[marciofs]

Thank all.

I know all the opcoes and variables that will make the pic more or less grainy, such as film size, exposure, ISO and so on. But it is not what I mean to ask. I just was curious is changing only the developer temperature would have any influence. But it seems it doesn't then

Polyglot, Rodinal is actually my main developer.

 

[mnemosyne]

Thank all.

I know all the opcoes and variables that will make the pic more or less grainy, such as film size, exposure, ISO and so on. But it is not what I mean to ask. I just was curious is changing only the developer temperature would have any influence. But it seems it doesn't then

Polyglot, Rodinal is actually my main developer.

Marcio,
you are probably referring to the fact that a lot of people are saying that Rodinal gives less accentuated grain when used at 18C instead of 20C. I have always wondered if this is a fact or just an internet myth. I use Rodinal only rarely (mostly with old style films like the now gone Efke), but in the end this is something that one could test out relatively easy by simply cutting a roll (with frames that were exposed under comparable conditions) in half and developing one half at 20C and the other at 18C (with time compensation of course) and then compare the results.

 

[Ian Grant]

I frequently see assertions that film will look less grainy if you use Rodinal at 18C instead of 20C, but I've never verified it. It generally devolves to a shouting match with no evidence provided either way, and explanations being a bit handwavy.

Some Germans use Rodinal ay 16ºC. In practice with good overall temperature control at all processing stages temperature including washing has no effect on grain size.

However some films are prone to surface artefacts of the gelatin with poor temperature control, and Rodinal which contains Potassium Hydroxide softens the emulsion increasing the possibility of these artefacts. The result of these artefacts, also known as micro-reticulation, is a dull looking surface to the top layer of the film (or paper)surface. When negatives with these artefacts are printed or scanned there is an increase in apparent graininess in the prints and particularly scans.

All the major film manufacturers use hardening techniques in their emulsions to try and overcome these issues and these days it's only certain films and film/developer combination's where you might run into severe problems with poor temperature control. Neopan 400 and the older Tmax400 were two films that were susceptible.

I process my films at 20ºC in the UK and up to 27ºC in Turkey as that's the ambient water temperature in th Summer and there's no differences in grain size at all. I've also seen 120 Tmax400 processed in Xtol so grainy (when printed) the negatives were unusable, and 35mm Tmax400 processed in exactly the same chemistry a few minutes later with fine grain, the only difference was with the 120 film was the first photographer didn't check the temperatures of the stop bath, fixer or wash water.

Ian

 

[MDR]

In the past it was adviced to use Rodinal at below 20°C 18°C was considered the best temp and 16° borderline. The 16°C and 18°C advice is from the dryplate era since then the emulsions have changed. At 18°C you will get a barely noticeable grain reduction.

 

[Ian Grant]

In the past it was adviced to use Rodinal at below 20°C 18°C was considered the best temp and 16° borderline. The 16°C and 18°C advice is from the dryplate era since then the emulsions have changed. At 18°C you will get a barely noticeable grain reduction.

At 18°C you will get exactly the same grain size as at 20°C, 22°C etc, as long as you've adjusted the development time, and maintaining a constant temperature throughout the process cycle. Temperature has absolutely no effect on the grain size, it can effect the apparent graininess on prints and scans with poor temperature control.

Ian

 

[marciofs]

Thank you for the answers

 

[David Lyga]

I process my films at 20ºC in the UK and up to 27ºC in Turkey as that's the ambient water temperature in th Summer and there's no differences in grain size at all.

Ian

I will go yet further: I have processed traditional B&W film at temperatures as high at 90F and find absolutely NO INCREASE in grain. Grain comes from extended gamma (contrast index), not from temperature, per se. The truism that temperature negatively affects grain comes from the distinct possiblity that much higher temperatures facilitate over-development. And, no, the emulsion will not fall off at those high temperatures: not even with traditional B&W emulsions. I have a 100 foot roll of Tri-X (expired in 1958) to prove this. But the emulsion is dangerously soft, thus needs special care. Thus, do not try to stop and fix at temperatures lower. Introduce the processed film into wash water that is at least 85F if you develop at 90F. Of course, you will have to deal with either highly diluted developers or developers which are not, perhaps, even moderately alkaline. Thus, even the sulfite in D-76 might prove to be sufficiently high, making development time too short. - David Lyga

 

[Animalcito]

Ciao Ian,

well here the Film has a major impact on the result. Last year I tried this "experiment" just to satisfy my curiosity. Rodinal with Orwo UN54 and Kentmere. While the Orwo was clearly less grainy at 16°C, the Kentmere has not shown any significant change. This finding may also apply to other films and is maybe the reason why some people a claiming finer grain and others do not see any difference.

Do I now use Rodinal at 16°C? For sure not, it is just too much effort to keep everything at 16°C, especially in summer time. If grain is critical I use XTOL otherwise Rodinal, but the testing was fun and that counts

Marcus

 

[cliveh]

I will go yet further: I have processed traditional B&W film at temperatures as high at 90F and find absolutely NO INCREASE in grain. Grain comes from extended gamma (contrast index), not from temperature, per se. The truism that temperature negatively affects grain comes from the distinct possiblity that much higher temperatures facilitate over-development. And, no, the emulsion will not fall off at those high temperatures: not even with traditional B&W emulsions. I have a 100 foot roll of Tri-X (expired in 1958) to prove this. But the emulsion is dangerously soft, thus needs special care. Thus, do not try to stop and fix at temperatures lower. Introduce the processed film into wash water that is at least 85F if you develop at 90F. Of course, you will have to deal with either highly diluted developers or developers which are not, perhaps, even moderately alkaline. Thus, even the sulfite in D-76 might prove to be sufficiently high, making development time too short. - David Lyga

David, processing traditional B&W film at 90F is not a good idea.

 

[Thomas Bertilsson]

David, processing traditional B&W film at 90F is not a good idea.

Unless you have a developer specifically designed for that purpose.

I am currently using the Harvey's / Defender 777 Panthermic. It was developed in the 1930s to cope with the high temperatures seen in photography studios at the time. Even back in the 1930s, with the soft emulsions they had then, it was completely safe to develop with chemistry at 90 degrees F or less.

I use it at 75 degrees F. At 68 degrees it just takes too long.

But then again, I am not really concerned with grain. Like our old departed APUG friend 'Flotsam' used to state in his signature "That's called grain. It is supposed to be there".

 

[Gerald C Koch]

A few years ago Kodak changed their temperature recommendations permitting films to be developer at 24C (75F).

 

[Ian Grant]

Ciao Ian,

well here the Film has a major impact on the result. Last year I tried this "experiment" just to satisfy my curiosity. Rodinal with Orwo UN54 and Kentmere. While the Orwo was clearly less grainy at 16°C, the Kentmere has not shown any significant change. This finding may also apply to other films and is maybe the reason why some people a claiming finer grain and others do not see any difference.

Do I now use Rodinal at 16°C? For sure not, it is just too much effort to keep everything at 16°C, especially in summer time. If grain is critical I use XTOL otherwise Rodinal, but the testing was fun and that counts

Marcus

Actually that's what I'd expect with less sophisticated emulsions, EFKE films behave the same way. But the increase graininess is a result of surface artefacts due to temperature variations not the actual silver grains in the negative.

When I first used EFKE films in the 70's I'd add a few drops of Formaldehyde into the developer as a hardener or use a chrome alum stop bath, both worked well. I remember buying ex-UK Government stock FP3 & HP3 both very much softer emulsions then FP4 & HP4 and later HP5 and they'd reticulate unless you used tight temperature control.

I used Rodinal & Xtol with APX25/APX100 & Tmax 100 for many years the results are indistinguishable, regardless of the temperatures.

Ian

 

[marciofs]

So it is not really worth rise temperetaure on developing unless for make the develop time shorter or weather condition. Right?

 

[MattKing]

So it is not really worth rise temperetaure on developing unless for make the develop time shorter or weather condition. Right?

I develop film at whatever the ambient temperature is. Same for all the rest of my chemicals and, as much as possible, the wash water.

 

[Ian Grant]

So it is not really worth rise temperetaure on developing unless for make the develop time shorter or weather condition. Right?

It's about knowing your films and how they behave at different temperatures.

I'm quite happy to process my Ilford, Foma and previously Kodak films at higher tmeperatures knowing as long as I'm careful I won't have any problems. Actually in the summer working at 26º-28ºC the ambient water temperature I find it very easy to maintian the temperatuer to within +/- 1ºC of the chosen temperature.

If possible I develop my films at 20ºC which is easy when in the UK but impossible when in Turkey with temperatures in the spring, summer, & autumn in the 30's and for a short spell in the summer in the low 40's, luckily the water temperature doesn't rise above about 27ºC.

The only time I deliberately raise processing temperatures is for tray processing sheet films to cut the dev times, I try to process at 24ºC. This is to cut the time spent in the dark.

Ian