Developer storage - not glass

Andrew4x5 · Apr 17, 2013

I use PET bottles (soda water bottles), which are pretty gas-proof and can be squeezed to exclude excess air. The ID11 stock solution that I make up keeps for at least four months at Australian temperatures (typically 20-30 degrees Centrigrade). From memory, ID11 stock solution didn't keep any longer in glass bottles.

pierods · Apr 17, 2013

Andrew4x5 said:
I use PET bottles (soda water bottles), which are pretty gas-proof and can be squeezed to exclude excess air. The ID11 stock solution that I make up keeps for at least four months at Australian temperatures (typically 20-30 degrees Centrigrade). From memory, ID11 stock solution didn't keep any longer in glass bottles.

Now that's very good news...I'll give it a try.

MartinP · Apr 17, 2013

AgX said:
That is a wrong assumption.
By time the gases mix. The heavier-than-air concept though makes substituting air by the inert gas more easy, at its best you only need as much inert gas as air-volume to be replaced.

So the inert gas would need to totally replace the air inside the top of the container, in order to be effective? One of my colleagues is mis-using the stuff, oops. Though perhaps the diffusion of the smaller volume of inert gas takes some time (more than the time between weekends anyway)? I'll stick to marbles and squeezable bottles I think.

pierods · Apr 22, 2013

I tried the soda bottle concept and I did not like it.

When you squeeze the bottle, you never manage to get all of the air out (you can verify it by turning the bottle upside down and seeing the air bubbles coming up to the bottom of the bottle).

I also bought a bottle of Kapri Sonne (which is a folding aluminium bottle like the one on my first post) and I noticed the same phenomenon.

So I came up with this idea: I will buy a transparent squeeze bottle with a long thin spout. I will fill it with one dose of developer (250 ml for me) and then squeeze the bottle.

Since the bottle is transparent, I will see exactly when the liquid goes up to the top of the spout, and then cap it.

That should keep a really minimal amount of air in the bottle and let me keep the developer for the full 6 months of the "fully stoppered bottle" described by Kodak.

sepiareverb · Apr 22, 2013

MartinP said:
So the inert gas would need to totally replace the air inside the top of the container, in order to be effective? One of my colleagues is mis-using the stuff, oops. Though perhaps the diffusion of the smaller volume of inert gas takes some time (more than the time between weekends anyway)? I'll stick to marbles and squeezable bottles I think.

The Argon settles to the surface of the developer because it is heavier than Oxygen. People use this in preserving paint and varnishes, and a brief spray is all that is needed. I've been using this for two years now and have had no developer go bad in an opened container.

From the Bloxygen site:

The heavy, inert Bloxygen gas sinks down to block oxygen from the liquid surface. Because Bloxygen is heavier than air, it will separate the liquid surface from any air that may remain in the container.

BlOxygen has a suggested retail of $10.95 to 11.95. Each can is good for about 75 uses in quarts, 32 uses in gallons.

Hold container lid/top closely above opening of the container to capture the gas blanket.
Spray inside for 2 full seconds (quart size or less)
Spray inside for 4 full seconds (gallon size or more)
Replace lid on container immediately and capture the gas blanket. The gases now settle on the surface to prevent loss through drying and hardening.
Each can of BLOXYGEN provides over 150 seconds of protective gas.

Jonathan R · Apr 22, 2013

pierods said:
Hi,
I think many people are against plastic squeezable containers, but these floppy bags squeeze better than accordion bottles and in any case since they hold 2/3 doses, content will not have many chances to oxidize before the container gets empty.

Does anybody have an idea about where to buy these?

I've had a quick whizz through the replies here, but I don't think anyone has answered your question?

I Googled 'liquid packaging' and looked at images. That led me to 'pouch' and 'spout'. If you Google these two words you will find many manufacturers/suppliers. In the UK, for instance, there is Polypouch.

It's a great idea. Please let us know what you end up with and whether it proves workable.

Jonathan

Jonathan R · Apr 22, 2013

What about this:

http://www.daklapack.co.uk/laminated-packaging/stand-up-pouches-spout/spoutbag-106xl-transparent-165-x-230/8712963012014/

£60.72 for 100. I'd be interested to share an order with someone if it turns out they can be easily refilled. I'll ask for a sample.

pierods · Apr 22, 2013

Hello Jonathan,

I already discarded the idea of using a pouch.

When you try to close a pouch, a fairly substantial air bubble is fatally left in the spout, no matter how close you try to level the liquid to the edge of the spout. This is due to the diameter of the spout and the fact that a liquid tends to form an arc at the surface of a spout.

I think the solution is to have a very thin and long spout (see my post #28) on a squeezable bottle, so that when you squeeze the bottle before capping it, whatever air is left in there, say a 1 millimeter long bubble, it will still be a cylinder 1mm tall and 2 mm wide, which is a really tiny bubble.

To empty the bottle out, one would uncap it, let air in through the spout, remove the cap and quickly pour it out.

Please see the photo on my post #28.

Jonathan R · Apr 22, 2013

I'm not sure I'd be so quick to discard the idea. My main interest is just to store chemicals from one evening's printing session to the next opportunity, which might be a few days or a week later.

OK, a thin neck will reduce the amount of oxidation, but for my purposes any bottle that's full to the neck will be fine. The worst is having a bottle that's full only to the shoulder. Glass marbles are irritating as you observed, and they have to be cleaned. I thought your pouch idea was a great way to avoid all this.

Anyway, there's a free 1 litre sample pouch on its way to me, so I'll let you know how good it is.

chrisaisenbrey · Apr 22, 2013

The idea of using soft bags for the storage of developer is quite attractive. 3 and 5 liter containers are extremely cheap:
http://www.rekru.de/index.php?cPath=Bag-in-Box-482

On the other hand they are made of PE. And PE is relatively well permeable to oxygen. Does anybody have experience with storage of developer in PE?

Alternative there is also the Accordion Bottle from Kaiser.

http://www.kaiser-fototechnik.de/en/produkte/2_1_produktanzeige.asp?nr=4198

Chris

tkamiya · Apr 22, 2013

I really don't see the need to over-complicate this issue.... if all one want is to have developer stock solution last as long as the manufacturer says. It can be done with commonly available "Data Bottles".

In my past experience with D-76, Dektol and XTOL, using commonly available DATA BOTTLE type plastic containers allowed me to keep the working solution for rated duration, at least. The trick is to minimize introduction and repeated introduction of fresh oxygen to the mix. When I used one 1 gallon bottle for D-76 and Dektol, last few "servings" of solutions were considerably dark and weak. Having bottle opened so many times and fresh oxygen getting in dozens of time must have done it in. I think I threw some away back then.

What I do now is this:
Freshly mixed stock solution gets decanted to a series of bottles.
ONE 1/2 gallon data bottle
ONE 1/4 gallon data bottle
ONE or TWO 1/8 gallon data bottle (used for XTOL which comes in 5 liter bag)
Remainder goes to up to FIVE 8 oz bottles of similar materials.

Start using from smaller bottles. Note, each smallest bottle is "one serving" per bottle. Once all small bottles are empty, larger one get decanted into small bottles. This process continues until the largest one get decanted to remaining smaller ones.

This way, re-introduction of oxygen is limited and number of bottles required are minimum. In my experience, they last at least 8 months. I also have an added convenience of one bottle being per serving.

It works for me.

By the way, there are no Data Bottles in 8 oz sizes. I use plastic bottles that are made of the same material as Data Bottles. Picking wrong type of plastic resulted in early degradation so it is important to watch for the right plastic code at bottom.

pierods · Apr 22, 2013

What is a data bottle?

tkamiya · Apr 22, 2013

Dead Link Removed

It's called various things but it's these chemical storage bottles commonly available from Photography dealer/retailers.

pierods · Apr 22, 2013

Ok I see.

Question is, I don't have the data bottles yet, so I must still make my investment in containers.

I thought about the decanting too - but I think this can be more practical:

My normal developer dose ("serving") is 250 ml.

I can pour 1 gallon of d76/xtol in 7 squeeze narrow spout bottles, each one 500 ml.

Before capping each of them, I give it a small squeeze and then cap so I get zero oxygen.

For each use, I uncap a bottle, I pour out half of it (250 ml), give it a bigger squeeze, cap, zero oxygen again.

Next time, I empty out the bottle, and after that I open another one.

This way I get zero oxygen and I don't have to do the decanting.

It remains to be seen if after the squeeze, the bottle will suck up air when capped or not.

I'll do some tests.

pierods · Apr 22, 2013

tkamiya: do you mind telling us the code under your data bottles?

I found these:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/500ml-PE-Fla...08?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item48540a3fa4

pierods · Apr 22, 2013

chrisaisenbrey said:
The idea of using soft bags for the storage of developer is quite attractive. 3 and 5 liter containers are extremely cheap:
http://www.rekru.de/index.php?cPath=Bag-in-Box-482

On the other hand they are made of PE. And PE is relatively well permeable to oxygen. Does anybody have experience with storage of developer in PE?

Alternative there is also the “Accordion Bottle” from Kaiser.

http://www.kaiser-fototechnik.de/en/produkte/2_1_produktanzeige.asp?nr=4198

Chris

Chris,

when the accordion bottle gets down to 250 ml, it's extremely inconvenient to squeeze, so you spill developer and let air in while doing it.

The soft bags are attractive indeed but then you have to do the decanting.

Also, the accordion bottles I have are all PE.

tkamiya · Apr 22, 2013

Pierods,

Yes, I will give you the plastic code once I get home tonight.

One problem I see with your squeeze bottle thing is that the cap that will come with those bottles do not make good seal. I find most developers suck oxygen with such vigor that many thin wall plastic bottles actually collapse in with negative pressure.

bobwysiwyg · Apr 22, 2013

pierods said:
tkamiya: do you mind telling us the code under your data bottles?

I found these:

http://www.ebay.de/itm/500ml-PE-Fla...08?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_77&hash=item48540a3fa4

I've used the same jugs for developer and fixer for years. Labeled "Delta1 Datatainer." Recycle code in the triangle on the bottom is "2" and labeled HDPE plastic.

tkamiya · Apr 22, 2013

Mine says "2" as well. These have been working well for me.

Just as an FYI, I mistakenly purchased bottles marked "5". Dektol showed degradation after about 1 months in storage. Some sediment and filament like stuff showed up and color changed to light yellow. It did work after 6 months but I didn't like the fact it showed sign of change, so I don't use them anymore.

Jonathan R · Apr 23, 2013

For film, I use a 2-bath developer. This stores really well, because the developing agent and the alkali are separate. A rather amusing frustration, though is that with repeated use the first bath gets smaller and the second bath gets bigger, so no rigid bottle is ever the right size.

pierods · Apr 23, 2013

I'll buy the squeeze spout bottles and let you guys know about the result.

TonyR · Apr 30, 2013

Hi all

I have been using emptied and washed 2- and 4 litre wine cask bladders for at least 16 years for storage of film and print developers (including 2 part developers such as Beutler), as well as fixer concentrate. Xtol lasts at least 12 months (I've used some successfully after 18 months!).

The casks are easy to fill - remove the tap, hold the circular tap opening upright, pour in the dev. replace the tap and carefully squeeze the bladder while holding open (slightly) the tap to remove the last of the air. You can then place the bladder back into its original box (open up the top where the handles are) and reseal same with tape. Then tape a label on the front of the wine box with name of contents and date.

A 2 litre cask can hold about 3 litres, and a 4 litre holds 5 litres - great size for most larger packets of film and paper developers.

Cheers
Tony from Sydney

pierods · Apr 30, 2013

Thanks Tony,

that's interesting news!

Would you have an image of the bladders you are talking about, so I can find them here in Deutschland?

TonyR · Apr 30, 2013

pierods said:
Thanks Tony,

that's interesting news!

Would you have an image of the bladders you are talking about, so I can find them here in Deutschland?

Hi Pierods

The wine casks are a budget priced wine sealed in an aluminiun foil covered plastic bag with a tap, and housed in a cardboard box - maybe you only have the premium wine in bottles in Deutschland! Have a check at your liquor supply shop (called "bottle shops" in Australia). If you can get one, open it up and have a look at the 'bladder' and you see what I mean...hope this helps

Cheers
Tony

Developer storage - not glass

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