Developer shortage in Serbia - missing starter

Misko78 · Dec 27, 2017

I was using Tetenal SP45 + Tetenal C41RA Bleach + Tetenal Superfix FX-VR fixer for some time now, but store is out of developer and wont be getting any before February. Kodak suppler is out of developer too, so no Kodak before mid January. Fuji Hunt when you order there is a 6 week waiting. Arghhhhh.

I managed to snatch some Champion SP N1 HR replenisher but i don't have the starter for it.

a. I still have a used working solution from Tetenal but i don't have replenisher to replenish it.
b. I have Tetenal starter for SLR Tetenal developer/replenisher not for SP45 i use but Tetenal support gave me mixing instruction how to mix it with SP45.
Original SLR mix ( 850ml dev + 25ml starter + 25ml water), and with SP45 it is (900ml dev + 10ml starter + 90ml water).
c. Champion working solution is mixed like this (650ml replenisher + 5ml starter + 345ml water)

What should i do?
1. Just mix Champion replenisher and replenish used Tetenal working solution.
2. Use Tetenal mixing SLR scheme 850 + 25 +25
3. Use Tetenal mixing SP45 scheme 900+10+90
4. Something else.

Thanks for the help!!!

trendland · Dec 27, 2017

I would (personaly) prefer to wait for the
right stuff.
But if you can't wait I would replunish with your Chaimpion chems.
Because to replunish Tetenal c41 with other replunisher than recomanded is (to me) the more little risk than to use a different starter chemistry.
But perhaps others here have additional
advices to you.
Before using the Champion replunished Tetenal working solution you should run some tests (one test film splittet in some stripes with some test frames each would be perfect)
Just to control the correct replunish rate.
AND to control if the result of this Champion replunisher are possible color shifts (it may happen cause of other design of Champion chems or cause of wrong strengh of replunished working solution)
To correct possible wrong strenght it may be a good way to change developer CD times.
But never mind it may be possible to get good negatives without shifts if you will spend time for extensive test.
If you have great luck it will work put from the first test run in a good way.
But you have to check it before.

with regards

trendland · Dec 27, 2017

I would (personaly) prefer to wait for the
right stuff.
But if you can't wait I would replunish with your Chaimpion chems.
Because to replunish Tetenal c41 with other replunisher than recomanded is (to me) the more little risk than to use a different starter chemistry.
But perhaps others here have additional
advices to you.
Before using the Champion replunished Tetenal working solution you should run some tests (one test film splittet in some stripes with some test frames each would be perfect)
Just to control the correct replunish rate.
AND to control if the result of this Champion replunisher are possible color shifts (it may happen cause of other design of Champion chems or cause of wrong strengh of replunished working solution)
To correct possible wrong strenght it may be a good way to change developer CD times.
But never mind it may be possible to get good negatives without shifts if you will spend time for extensive test.
If you have great luck it will work put from the first test run in a good way.
But you have to check it before.

with regards

trendland · Dec 27, 2017

Sorry to reply twice - just cellphone trouble. ...

halfaman · Dec 27, 2017

Have you tried to find it outside Serbia? Germany for example...

https://www.photo-lang.de/analog_fo...41_cd-r_sp45_farbentwickler-reg_i7_3174_0.htm
https://www.nordfoto.de/analoge-fot...-41-farbentwickler-regenerator-sp45-2x5-liter

Misko78 · Dec 27, 2017

@trendland
You might be right this is from the Tetenal minilab compendium. But then again they might be thinking about mixing and matching their own solutions.

To change from one to another type of developer is very easy and does not need replacement of the working tank solution. It only requires changing the replenishment rate on the processor to the value for the new type of developer replenisher used.

@halfaman
Problem is that Kodak and Tetenal suppliers were pulling my nose for a month if they had not i would order Fuji Hunt and i would be here in my hands. Since last week i'm out of chemistry and have 30+ rolls to develop. Ordering from other country is not easy because of the customs regulations i would have to hire a pro chemist to write the import papers and that alone would cost me a bunch of money. Other solution would be to find someone in Croatia and have it send to me by regular bus line. But all in all i'm stuck with what i have.

Rudeofus · Dec 29, 2017

If I look at your options, two things come to my mind:

option 1 (SP45 replenisher with SLR starter) was specifically recommended by its maker, Tetenal. They wouldn't recommend such a thing if they weren't quite certain it works and delivers good results.
option 2 would be the Champion mix, since it uses the least amount of starter (which you don't have) relative to total amount of process liquid. You may need a stash of Bromide, Iodide, Hydroxide and Acetic Acid to get the curves straight. Do you have some minimal stash of raw chems, and ideally a pH meter?

trendland · Dec 29, 2017

Misko78 said:
@trendland
You might be right this is from the Tetenal minilab compendium. But then again they might be thinking about mixing and matching their own solutions.

To change from one to another type of developer is very easy and does not need replacement of the working tank solution. It only requires changing the replenishment rate on the processor to the value for the new type of developer replenisher used.

@halfaman
Problem is that Kodak and Tetenal suppliers were pulling my nose for a month if they had not i would order Fuji Hunt and i would be here in my hands. Since last week i'm out of chemistry and have 30+ rolls to develop. Ordering from other country is not easy because of the customs regulations i would have to hire a pro chemist to write the import papers and that alone would cost me a bunch of money. Other solution would be to find someone in Croatia and have it send to me by regular bus line. But all in all i'm stuck with what i have.

Wow - that's very sad to hear about - so you have very hard restictions in your country?
So you might work the tetenal option but I am not familiar with the replunishment rate at all. You may find oft this rate from Tetanal instruction.
But it is to mini-labs isn't it ? So they recomanded permanent replunishment.
In the old days the labs were managed with the help of real good chemists.
In such a case they first started analysis to find out how much exaustion of baths were done after this they decided to the rate of replunishment from own expertise.
Behaps your best method is a test run with corrections.
But (I will read this next) Rudeofus seams to have a good answer - as allways...

with regards

trendland · Dec 29, 2017

Rudeofus said:
If I look at your options, two things come to my mind:

option 1 (SP45 replenisher with SLR starter) was specifically recommended by its maker, Tetenal. They wouldn't recommend such a thing if they weren't quite certain it works and delivers good results.

option 2 would be the Champion mix, since it uses the least amount of starter (which you don't have) relative to total amount of process liquid. You may need a stash of Bromide, Iodide, Hydroxide and Acetic Acid to get the curves straight. Do you have some minimal stash of raw chems, and ideally a pH meter?

Aha....Rudeofus I see - to work without original starter isn't real simple. I tought about before. It is possible but you need
a little chemical analysis of different parameters with (possible) corrections.
EVERYTHINK IS ALLWAYS POSSIBLE - if we just want it real !
But I have some doubts if the OP can get the raw stuff (due to restrictions)....?
SP45 in use seams to be more easy - but if I understand the OP correct he did not know how far his CD is exausted/what the correct mixing cheme for his replunisher is?
So should we just say : Never mind about/ in case of doubts the more replunisher the better ???
Just out from interist : a little incorrect replunishing rate should concern the strenght of the whole CD solution - this should effect the developing time - this
should cause an impact in colors/shifts.
The more incorectness (sure we have the task to avoid [but without correct instruction?] ) the more shiftings ?
Or do we speek about a self regulation of CD to the point of very to much replunishing rate.
I have an idea from that minilabs have not this very smal range of correctness - we are supposing in general - coming from /caused from machine controled permanent replunishment.
with regard

PS : the question from OP seams to go in direction of cheme
- SLR ( 850 (+25) / (+25)
or cheme
- SP45 ( 900 (+10) / (+90)

...I realy don't know...

Rudeofus · Dec 29, 2017

trendland said:
Aha....Rudeofus I see - to work without original starter isn't real simple. I tought about before. It is possible but you need
a little chemical analysis of different parameters with (possible) corrections.
EVERYTHINK IS ALLWAYS POSSIBLE - if we just want it real !
But I have some doubts if the OP can get the raw stuff (due to restrictions)....?

I am aware, that skipping dev starter is not as simple as "add a few drops of toad liver and say three hail Mary", but I recognize Misko78 as quite knowledgeable and competent member here who could at least theoretically pull this off. While Serbia has fallen out of favor with TPTB in the EU, it is quite a developed country, and the raw ingredients I listed should be readily available in Belgrade.

Misko78 · Dec 30, 2017

Thanks for the help and ideas. Raws are available but last time i called companies problem were the quantities. Some ingredients have minimal quantities you can buy, for an example when i wanted to mix my own ECN-2 i had to buy 500g of CD-3 and i need 4g per liter. To import chemical ingredients to Serbia you have to show customs what those ingredients are, thus the import papers signed by licensed chemist, you do that once. The new "ecology preservation" law made it harder to import. For a company that imports many things complying with regulations is not a problem for a tiny individual like me dealing with various middle men it is.
Company that imports Tetenal is very unprofessional, they sell SP45 than need 104045 starter which they don't sell but they have 104017 starter for SLR developer, drum roll, that they don't sell, so i made a phone call to Mr. Kocher from Tetenal and he gave me instructions how to use SLR starter with SP45. I called importer told them that i did their job, gave them that info and voila they have info on their site now.
Kodak guy on the other hand is a very interesting person, "I'm bringing you chems on Tuesday" chants is all i hear from him, and after a month he brings me Champion developer without starter with line "this is all i could find".
Fuji Hunt guys are good but they don't have stock anymore, 4-6 weeks waiting time but you can get anything from fuji hunt repertoire.
I'm an architect but i run a home lab to cut my photography expenses down and to fund my home lab (b&W and color enlarging), i use custom programmed ATL1000, i'm very careful with film, i scan, archive and people appreciate that. I don't have many customers but some are zealous about how i do dev+scan, "no lab in Serbia will give you results like Miloš" which is nice to hear, although it is not true, nothing can beat a properly run and maintained lab.

Sorry about this, let's get back to the topic.

I don't have the strips, just took the camera and shot a scene in my yard with as many colors i could find, clothing pins, kids toys... and took couple of shots. Than i replenished Tetenal working solution with Champion replenisher. Developed it and scanned and results looked normal-same compared to previously developed film from same film stock. Did 20 rolls already and sent results to the people and i'm awaiting feedback.

Rudeofus · Dec 30, 2017

Misko, I did not suggest you mix the whole C-41/E-6 kit from scratch. What I suggested was that you mix C-41 CD starter from Bromide, Iodide, acid and alkali to make an initial tank, which you then replenish with the replenisher you have. Bromide/Iodide is available from pharmacies in gram amounts, and acid/base is available from hardware stores. Your solution is even easier and more straight forward, so congratulations to your success. I am still not sure why you didn't follow the Tetenal SP45/SLR route, but I guess after frustrating dealings with an incompetent sales office emotions can sometimes take precedence over technical considerations. BTDT.

Misko78 · Dec 30, 2017

Your reply was after i did replenishment with Champion. I just didn't consider that as an option because my previous experiences with buying raws, i'll try to do that homework now as i'm not dealing with deadlines during holidays (new year day is a big time here and xmas is on 7th of jan.). I had a belief that sp45/slr route was a bad idea . And yeah you were totally right about emotions i was so frustrated at the moment, i had to do something. I was checking on APUG every 20 minutes hoping that somebody will solve this for me. Mixed it on Thursday afternoon, i just wasn't rational to wait a little bit more. Thank you for helping me over and over again, i really appreciate it a lot.

lantau · Jan 20, 2018

Rudeofus said:
Misko, I did not suggest you mix the whole C-41/E-6 kit from scratch. What I suggested was that you mix C-41 CD starter from Bromide, Iodide, acid and alkali to make an initial tank, which you then replenish with the replenisher you have. Bromide/Iodide is available from pharmacies in gram amounts, and acid/base is available from hardware stores. Your solution is even easier and more straight forward, so congratulations to your success. I am still not sure why you didn't follow the Tetenal SP45/SLR route, but I guess after frustrating dealings with an incompetent sales office emotions can sometimes take precedence over technical considerations. BTDT.

I, too, have the problem of having Flexicolor developer replenisher but no starter. I got mine as a byproduct of my odyssey to obtain Ektacolor RT/LU dev and blix. Unfortunately no starter was available and in central Europe Kodak colour chemistry isn't sold anywhere. Only if you are a commercial user there will probably be Kodak distributors which sell it. But not to retail customers.

There is a thread with an older EK C41 recipe. Could I make tank solution by adding the amounts of NaBr and NaI given there to my replenisher solution? I'd adjust the pH to 10.03 with acetic acid.

mnemosyne · Jan 21, 2018

lantau said:
I, too, have the problem of having Flexicolor developer replenisher but no starter. I got mine as a byproduct of my odyssey to obtain Ektacolor RT/LU dev and blix. Unfortunately no starter was available and in central Europe Kodak colour chemistry isn't sold anywhere. Only if you are a commercial user there will probably be Kodak distributors which sell it. But not to retail customers.

Sounds like you got your stuff from Ag Photographic. I too noticed that they sell the Flexicolor developer but not the starter. Have you asked them if they are able to obtain the starter? I had some conversation with them in the past (different issue), they were quite forthcoming and helpful. Other than that and depending on where you live in the EU I also might be able to help you source the Flexicolor starter as I want to order some for myself, PM please.

lantau · Jan 21, 2018

mnemosyne said:
Sounds like you got your stuff from Ag Photographic. I too noticed that they sell the Flexicolor developer but not the starter. Have you asked them if they are able to obtain the starter? I had some conversation with them in the past (different issue), they were quite forthcoming and helpful. Other than that and depending on where you live in the EU I also might be able to help you source the Flexicolor starter as I want to order some for myself, PM please.

Yes, I got it from them. I, too, had some other issue and they were very helpful once I contacted them. I didn't ask about the starter, though.

Rudeofus · Jan 22, 2018

I am wondering, whether the cheapest and most straight forward path towards an initial C-41 CD would be using a regular kit. There is AFAIK no published formula for replenished C-41 CD, so any home brew effort would likely include a fair amount of test strips and variations and different raw chems. The Ektacolor LORR CD starter MSDS lists Pentetic Acid Sodium Salt, which is not available from the usual suspects (Suvatlar, Formulary, ...). Since Pentetic Acid has relevant pH buffering action in the pH range where C-41 CD operates, we may not just leave it out and use DI water.

lantau · Jan 22, 2018

Yes, it is probably cheapest and easiest to use commercial developer. At least the replenishing ones will be pretty cheap to run, if you have a small but steady stream of films to keep it going. That's why I wanted to try the Kodak chemistry, that and because it is the definite C41 recipe. Thanks to a helpful member of the community I might be getting some starter.

So far I've been using the Rolleibase stuff, which comes in fairly cheap 100mL bottles for each of the three components. The starter is expensive compared to those, but they probably calculate that it is enough for plenty of batches and price it accordingly. I recently read that these are apparently repackaged Fuji Hunt chemicals. If that is the case they are probably just as good as the Kodak, after all. Oh well. That would also mean that you could use it in a replenishment regime. But without knowing which of the many Fuji C41 products they are filling into their bottles I'm clueless to how much to use.

As it is I have been using the Rolleibase chemicals in batch mode. Interesting is that they state a capacity of 20 Films for one litre of developer. Those Kodak instructions for tank development posted by PE over the years allow for six films per quart, if I'm not mistaken. The Z Manual for Flexicolor SM may even allow for only four films per litre. I wonder where that large difference is coming from.

Your comment about the DTPA hurts! I thought I have everything in stock, except DTPA, to make a good C41 dev according to the formula kindly provided by PE. My assumption was that without DTPA I'd have to adjust the pH and all is well. But perhaps you are right. I do actually prefer to use commercial C41product, but when I first ordered CD3 for ECN2, is also bought a bottle of CD4. I had found a formula on the web and later realised it lacks NaI, thus may not be a good idea to mix that. Later PE came out with the proper recipe... now I have some CD4 sitting around, waiting to be used one day.

Rudeofus · Jan 23, 2018

There are very good C-41 formulas posted by Stefan Lange here on photrio. All ingredients can be sourced without special access to commercial business only suppliers.

Note, that there is no such thing as a 100% correct formulas unless you also use the exact same suppliers for all raw ingredients, with the exact same impurities. Kodak did not publish these "and that's how you adjust/finetune your minilab process liquids" documents for fun.

Misko78 · Feb 1, 2018

Finally i got my hands on Kodak developer and starter but what to do with Champion now, experiment .

Did some MSDS research tonight and as far as Tetenal developers amount of starter depends on replenishing rate. Unfortunately Tetenal MSDS just lists the hazardous materials and water. Champion lists everything.
104017 - DTPA Na5 1-5%, Potassium Carbonate 1-5%, water >76%.
104045 - DTPA Na5 1-5%, Potassium Carbonate 1-5%, Potassium hydrogencarbonate 5-10%, water >80%
Champion starter - Potassium Bromide 10-15%, Water 80-90%

So i guess that Tetenal stuff is more potent to weaken the replenisher and what seems logical is to follow replenishment rates. I think i'll try to mix 900ml of replenisher with 10ml of 104017 starter and 90ml of water.

MattKing · Feb 1, 2018

Champion may be willing to answer your question.

Misko78 · Feb 2, 2018

I know, owner is a friend of mine. That is a different type of chemistry. I use replenished developer, bleach and fix. X-press is reusable kit chemistry, where you add more time after some number of films were developed, and it is much more expensive then minilab chemistry.

Developer shortage in Serbia - missing starter

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