Developer recomendations for AGFA APX 400?

railwayman3 · Jun 3, 2019

AgX said:
Well, I guess the statement fellows have in mind are these two from 2009 at the introduction of Kentmere labelled films:

I think that this thread is getting like the ancient theological discussions of the number of angels who can dance on the point of a pin.

Maybe Simon did make these comments in 2009......that's TEN years ago. Why try to hold him to account in some way for what happens now ? Company policies and practices can change over time, often to improve profitability and efficiency, or adapt to changes in the market.....the work which I now do professionally is very different to ten years ago, and unrecognisable in comparison to 30 years ago.

removed account4 · Jun 3, 2019

in my opinion >> get some DEKTOL and make some caffenol C add 1oz of straight stock DEKTOL into 1L of your caffneol C and develop your film for 8-81/2 minutesm normal agitation ( 1 full min 10 sec / 1min after that ).
or you could also dilute your DEKTOL 1:10 process your film in that for 10 mins ( agitate normal )
or 5 mins in Dektol 1:10 agitate normal, and 5 mins in the caffenol c with 1ozDektol agitate continuously
haven't had a bad roll of film or a bad sheet of film processed that way yet... ( 10+years )

pentaxuser · Jun 3, 2019

AgX said:
.
That does not even mean that AgfaPhoto necessarily sell these films themselves. In fact that does the firm Lupus Imaging. They buy the film off -stock from Harman, or have it tollcoated and converted..., with the brand of AgfaPhoto.

Is this the same Kentmere film except for AgfaPhoto edge markings and a differently labelled cassette in which the Kentmere film with Agfaphoto edge markings is placed. If tollcoated and converted means something different from what I have said in my previous sentence then can you explain what this involves? Thanks

pentaxuser

AgX · Jun 3, 2019

A firm basically could buy film two ways from a manufacturer:

1) from stock of masterrolls. The film then is converted with new edge-marking, and new cassette label in new box
2) tollcoated on own formula (unlikely as formula must be apt coating technique) or on formula by the manufacturer but following the buyer's prerequisites

Henning stated that for AgfaPhoto APS it is 1). More precise, Kentmere films.

Film-Niko · Jun 5, 2019

eatfrog said:
agfaphoto apx 400 is also sold as kentmere 400, you can probably find more information about the film by searching for that instead.

JPD said:
Yes, it's Kentmere 400.

I can confirm that: AgfaPhoto APX 100 and APX 400 are repacked Kentmere 100 and 400.
Luckily I have some photographer friends who share my deep passion for traditional film photography. Some time ago we did lots of of very detailed test runs to get the truth about the following films:
- AgfaPhoto APX 100 and 400
- Rollei RPX 100 and 400
- Fotoimpex CHM 100 and 400.
The question was: Are all these repacked Kentmere 100 and 400? Because we have read that from very reliable sources. But we wanted to be sure, therefore we made our own tests.
We made sensitometric tests (creating the characteristing curve), test chart shots and shots of normal subjects under exactly identical conditions.
And we also printed the shots and made some blind tests with us and other guys to check whether differences could be seen.
The results were absolutely clear: No differences at all, not even tiny ones. All these films are identical.
Kentmere 100 and 400 is simply repacked under the AgfaPhoto, Rollei and Fotoimpex brands.

pentaxuser · Jun 5, 2019

Interesting post Film-Niko and thanks for posting. I think both Rollei RPX 400, Fotoimpex CHM 400 and Agfaphoto APX 400 are made in 120 size but Kentmere isn't. If it is the same film as Kentmere and made at Ilford I am a little surprised that Ilford do not make Kentmere in 120 as well. If Ilford is running Fotoimpex, Rollei and Agfaphoto on its production lines at its factory I'd have thought that it would cost practically nothing extra to make Kentmere in 120 as well. Clearly there is a demand for 120, otherwise AgfaPhoto, Rollei and Fotoimpex would not pay Ilford to produce 120.

Anyone any ideas why it doesn't make sense for Ilford to make Kentmere in 120? There may be a fault in the logic of my argument above of course.

Thanks

pentaxuser

Film-Niko · Jun 5, 2019

pentaxuser said:
Interesting post Film-Niko and thanks for posting. I think both Rollei RPX 400, Fotoimpex CHM 400 and Agfaphoto APX 400 are made in 120 size but Kentmere isn't.

No, that is not correct. The Kentmeres, the CHM films and the APX films are only available in 135 35mm film.
Only the RPX are available in 135 and 120.

pentaxuser said:
Anyone any ideas why it doesn't make sense for Ilford to make Kentmere in 120? There may be a fault in the logic of my argument above of course.

Thanks

pentaxuser

I think two reasons:
1. Cheap films are extremely low margin films. Nothing to gain for a company. But you need an offer for your beginner customers and educational programs. And they use 135 format.
120 is used by advanced photographers with a not or less restricted budget. Better for Ilford here if the customers use Fp4+, Delta 100, HP5+, Delta 400 and XP2 Super.
2. Maco (Rollei-Film) is a pure distribution / trading company. They are completely dependent on a manufacturer like Ilford. And by "binding" them Ilford has a strategic advantage and can act in the market against its competitors. I assume they want to keep the market share for Foma and Adox as low as possible.

MattKing · Jun 5, 2019

It is a lot cheaper for Harman to "confection" a roll of 135 than it is to "confection" na roll of 120.
And FWIW, in response to a query from me, Harman have confirmed that they will not re-brand any ILFORD product but with respect to Kentmere, they state as follows:
"Hi Matt,
I understand that Simon, who left the business several years ago, was quite forthcoming in the past and very actively involved in this forum, but I hope you and others can appreciate that we simply can't share sensitive information on products or strategy. We love that photographers take such an avid interest in the manufacturing of our products and our brands but we are really not at liberty to disclose that level of commercially sensitive information on the work we do for partners. While we appreciate this answer won't satiate anyone's curiosity, in this case we will have to leave it to the forum members to speculate (we recommend buying plenty of ILFORD and Kentmere film to test your theories).
I'm afraid I can't offer more comment on the subject, but I am happy for you to share my response.
Kind regards,
Neil"

pentaxuser · Jun 5, 2019

Thanks Matt, I have asked a similar question of Ilford but have yet to get an answer but I can expect a similar response, I feel. I think your answer from Ilford tells me all I need to know. I'd have thought that as it is made by Ilford and not a carryover from the original Kentmere company then Kentmere is an Ilford film by any other name but in the language of "legalise" Kentmere is not an Ilford film because it doesn't carry the Ilford label so the original statement by Simon Galley about not re-badging Ilford products stands

Film-Niko, thanks for your response. The reasons you give for not producing Kentmere in 120 may well be right, although as Rollei believes it sensible to have RPX in 120 and the marginal cost to Ilford, having run Kentmere in 120 as Rollei must be small or so I'd have thought, then a 120 Kentmere might be worthwhile but I am pentaxuser and not Pemberstone

pentaxuser

MattKing · Jun 5, 2019

pentaxuser said:
Thanks Matt, I have asked a similar question of Ilford but have yet to get an answer but I can expect a similar response, I feel. I think your answer from Ilford tells me all I need to know. I'd have thought that as it is made by Ilford and not a carryover from the original Kentmere company then Kentmere is an Ilford film by any other name but in the language of "legalise" Kentmere is not an Ilford film because it doesn't carry the Ilford label so the original statement by Simon Galley about not re-badging Ilford products stands

There is no Ilford any more (except as a brand). Same goes for Kentmere.
There is Harman Technology Ltd., who own a leasehold interest in a factory property and some equipment, the brand name "Ilford" and the brand name "Kentmere". Their business is focused on coating, and they provide that service to a lot of different users, some of whom are involved in photographic businesses. They also apply their technology when they produce film and paper for sale under their own brand names.
Ten years ago Simon Galley made clear that Harman had a policy against rebranding either their Ilford branded products or their Kentmere branded products.
The current people at Harman have confirmed that that policy still applies with respect to the Ilford branded products, but have expressly refrained from saying whether that policy applies (or does not apply) with respect to Kentmere branded products.

Disconnekt · Jun 6, 2019

Too add to the confusion a bit, from what I've read online (some from photrio too), Ultrafine eXtreme 100 & 400 35mm film has been said to be re-badged Kentmere (same developing times, drying flat, low contrast). As far as the 120 film, who knows.

AgX · Jun 6, 2019

MattKing said:
There is no Ilford any more (except as a brand). Same goes for Kentmere.
There is Harman Technology Ltd., who own a leasehold interest in a factory property and some equipment, the brand name "Ilford" and the brand name "Kentmere".

Until recently there was a legally true "Ilford" manufacturer, namely Ilford Imaging, in Switzerland, but they went under.

All this is result of the complex Ilford history after WWII with its acquisitions, collapses, sales etc.

Arcadia4 · Jun 6, 2019

Harman Technology has rights to the Ilford brand only in connection with the former Ilfords UKs products.

The Ilford brand went with the then still profitable Ilford Imaging Switzerland but following bankruptcy and closure of the Marly Plant the rights were acquired by Ilford Imaging Europe established as a joint venture between Chugai Photo Chemical Co Ltd of Tokyo, Japan and CR Kennedy & Company Pty Ltd of Melbourne, Australia

Ilford Imaging Europe GmbH therefore still exists as a legal entity albeit is now a brand based in Germany with no manufacturing capability of its own
https://ilford.com/

Developer recomendations for AGFA APX 400?

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