Developer recomendations for AGFA APX 400?

Henning Serger · Jun 2, 2019

pentaxuser said:
Does this mean that based on your tests, Ilford who developed and launched Kentmere has chosen to allow its film to be sold and be simply re-packaged as both AgfaPhoto 100/400 and Fotoimpex CHM100/400?

This certainly flies in the face of a statement made on numerous occasions by Simon Galley, formerly of Harman Technology.

No, it does not. Simon Galley has always been very honest and correct.
Because he said that Harman technology / Ilford Photo does not offer Ilford labelled products to others! He has never said that Harman generally refuses to give their Kentmere products to others.
So you don't get Delta 100, FP4+, HP5+, XP2 Super, Multigrade IV etc. under different brand names. All these are exclusive Ilford products.
But Harman is doing production for several other companies (e.g. papers for Bergger). And they offer their cheap, lower-quality Kentmere films to others.

Simon was my tour guide at the latest Ilford factory tour organised so far (an excellent tour guide, by the way!). We also talked about these OEM productions.
And there has never been a contradiction of what he has told me and what I have experienced in my tests (and the infos I got from the companies which are Harman's OEM customers).
Therefore:
Please be fair to Simon Galley! What he said was correct. And I highly respect him. He is a very nice person.

Best regards,
Henning

jim appleyard · Jun 2, 2019

pentaxuser said:
I suppose the other explanation is that Agfaphoto gave a specification for its film to Ilford which just happened to match exactly its own specification of Kentmere. Such things are possible, I suppose but while I am a long way from being a film expert I'd have thought that one film from Agfaphoto matching another from Ilford in every measurement possible was unlikely?

Thanks

pentaxuser

This is possible. Ilford was/is known for making films for others, but like you said, not copies of their own.

Henning Serger · Jun 2, 2019

Just an addition to my reply above:

pentaxuser said:
I suppose the other explanation is that Agfaphoto gave a specification for its film to Ilford which just happened to match exactly its own specification of Kentmere.

We can really exclude that. Not only because of what I have explained in my post above, but also because of the following reasons:
1. AgfaPhoto films are sold by the company Lupus Imaging (they have bought the right from the license company AgfaPhoto to use the name AgfaPhoto for certain products including film). The Lupus Imaging team are former Agfa Leverkusen distribution and sales employees, not engineers! They don't have any own film formulas.
2. Even If they would have own (former Agfa) recipes that wouldn't help them at all. Because you cannot simply make a former Agfa film at the Harman/Ilford factory. Films are always designed for a specific production environment. It is extremely difficult and very expensive - and often simply impossible - to transfer film products from one factory to a completely different factory.
And in the case of former Agfa to Ilford there is even a very big hurdle: Agfa coating technology is quite different (I've seen it life) to what Ilford is using (Ilford did a test coating run for us visitors at our factory visit).

pentaxuser said:
Such things are possible, I suppose but while I am a long way from being a film expert I'd have thought that one film from Agfaphoto matching another from Ilford in every measurement possible was unlikely?

Yes, that is extremely unlikely. That can be excluded. And it would not made sense, because AgfaPhoto first has sold the remaining original Agfa film stock from the last Agfa production in the Leverkusen factory in 2005. If it would have been possible, they would have chosen films very similar to the original ones. But that has not been possible (I know the reasons, but that would lead to far here and is under NDA).

Best regards,
Henning

eatfrog · Jun 2, 2019

Henning Serger said:
Kentmere 100/400 is also repackaged as Fotoimpex CHM 100/400 (Fotoimpex has always been absolutely honest on this and given their customers the Kentmere developing times), RPX 100/400, Oriental 100/400.

Sorry for getting off topic, but have you tested Oriental Seagull and seen that they are also Kentmere? Oriental has previously said something like, "it is a new emulsion for the market" regarding these films.

MattKing · Jun 2, 2019

Henning:
Simon Galley also said here that the same policy applied to their Kentmere badged products.
I'll try to find the link, but it is challenging to do so.

Henning Serger · Jun 2, 2019

eatfrog said:
Sorry for getting off topic, but have you tested Oriental Seagull and seen that they are also Kentmere?

A friend of mine - a very experienced photographer - did the tests (also sensitometric, evaluating the characteristic curves) and got this result.

Best regards,
Henning

Henning Serger · Jun 2, 2019

MattKing said:
Henning:
Simon Galley also said here that the same policy applied to their Kentmere badged products.
I'll try to find the link, but it is challenging to do so.

Hello Matt,
at least I've never seen such a statement by Simon here. I well remember his statement that Harman technology will not sell any Ilford labelled product to others. Which is indeed the case. I haven't found any Ilford product under a different brand.

But for Kentmere 100 and 400 it is very obvious. Just test the rebranded films in direct comparison to Kentmere 100 and 400 and you will immediately see. And Fotoimpex for example has always been very honest about that to their customers. There are only sometimes some small variations due to batch-to-batch variation.

And what lots of members here forget:
Making a really different, additional emulsion as OEM for another brand would be expensive!! But the rebranded films we are talking about are in the lower price segment. And the profit margins of films are extremely low.
A really new, different emulsion in smaller volumes for small(er) distribution brands? No, not realistic.

Best regards,
Henning

JPD · Jun 2, 2019

Henning Serger said:
Making a really different, additional emulsion as OEM for another brand would be expensive!! But the rebranded films we are talking about are in the lower price segment. And the profit margins of films are extremely low.
A really new, different emulsion in smaller volumes for small(er) distribution brands? No, not realistic.

This makes me wonder wbout the Zeiss Ikon and Voigtländer (Bessapan) films that existed long ago. Who made them?

AgX · Jun 2, 2019

pentaxuser said:
However if I recall correctly AgfaPhoto was in the marketplace before Ilford changed hands and was owned by Pemberstone, its present owners.

So does this suggest that Mr Galley might have been lying all along?

I suppose the other explanation is that Agfaphoto gave a specification for its film to Ilford which just happened to match exactly its own specification of Kentmere.

I do not see that it matters when AgfaPhoto as entity arose. Anyway, since 2005 it is only a licensing company with as only asset the right to use the brand AgfaPhoto, still owned by Agfa.
That does not even mean that AgfaPhoto necessarily sell these films themselves. In fact that does the firm Lupus Imaging. They buy the film off -stock from Harman, or have it tollcoated and converted..., with the brand of AgfaPhoto.

Paul Howell · Jun 2, 2019

Henning Serger said:
Hello Matt,
at least I've never seen such a statement by Simon here. I well remember his statement that Harman technology will not sell any Ilford labelled product to others. Which is indeed the case. I haven't found any Ilford product under a different brand.

But for Kentmere 100 and 400 it is very obvious. Just test the rebranded films in direct comparison to Kentmere 100 and 400 and you will immediately see. And Fotoimpex for example has always been very honest about that to their customers. There are only sometimes some small variations due to batch-to-batch variation.

It's what recall as well, the conversation was concerning current Ilford emulsions, no mention of Kentmere or Harman or any other emulsion. And that was prior to the new ownership. Here in the US I believe that Ultrafine 100 and 400 are the same emulsions as Kentmere 100 and 400. Ultrfine may buy rolls they cut and package.

In terms of what developer, for 400 I found D76, ID 11 1:1 works well. I plan on trying Percptal (SP?) or a generic version of Microdal X at 1:2 or 1:3, shoot at 200.

Henning Serger · Jun 2, 2019

JPD said:
This makes me wonder wbout the Zeiss Ikon and Voigtländer (Bessapan) films that existed long ago. Who made them?

That is a completely different topic which is not related at all to our topic in this thread. Because it was at a completely different time, with a much different film industry, especially a much different demand.
You must not forget that most current manufacturers - including Ilford - have production facilities build during the film boom era, with capacities planned for that time. But the standard film market (without instant film) has now a size of about 1 - 1,5% compared to the peak film sales period of 1999 - 2001.

Best regards,
Henning

MattKing · Jun 2, 2019

My recollection is that Simon made the original statement about never re-branding Ilford products and then, in a significantly later post in a different thread, he replied by saying something to the effect of that the policy applied equally to the Kentmere line or any other product line that they owned.

Henning Serger · Jun 2, 2019

Hello Matt,
I have only seen the original post. Do you have a link to the second one?
Well, at the factory tour it was clearly said: No original Ilford products for any other company.
But that is not valid for the cheaper, lower-quality Kentmere line. And that is exactly what we see in the market. Proved by numerous tests and Harman's industry customers.

Best regards,
Henning

pentaxuser · Jun 2, 2019

Matt, your interpretation of what Simon said accords with mine. If Ilford simply "sold its film" to another reseller such as Agfaphoto and allowed it to rename it then this is "rebadging" and that was what I understood Simon to have said Ilford did not do.

Clearly Henning thinks that is exactly what Ilford do and did. In other words Ilford allegedly does the equivalent of Ford selling its Focus models to Vauxhall which it rebadges as Corsa because this sells more film to those loyal to the Vauxhall badge.

Does Ilford believe that it can sell more of its Kentmere films as a rebadged product via another name because consumers believe they are getting a different film with the name of Agfaphoto APX? Clearly Henning thinks so.

On the above basis, is there then any reason why for the right price Ilford should not sell its Delta range to Agfaphoto or Fuji and allow say either to simply give it a different name. It would appear not if I have understood Henning's argument correctly.

We are entering "murky waters" now

pentaxuser

MattKing · Jun 2, 2019

Henning Serger said:
Hello Matt,
I have only seen the original post. Do you have a link to the second one?
Well, at the factory tour it was clearly said: No original Ilford products for any other company.
But that is not valid for the cheaper, lower-quality Kentmere line. And that is exactly what we see in the market. Proved by numerous tests and Harman's industry customers.

Best regards,
Henning

I've been looking for the latter post Henning, but haven't found it.
It is tough to find posts when they consist of responses to what others say, and are amongst over 2000 other posts - Simon posted here many times.

AgX · Jun 2, 2019

MattKing said:
My recollection is that Simon made the original statement about never re-branding Ilford products and then, in a significantly later post in a different thread, he replied by saying something to the effect of that the policy applied equally to the Kentmere line or any other product line that they owned.

They just would need to tweak the formula a tiny bit (if economically feasible concerning coating runs) to be on the side of truth, nobody would realize the difference and we are splitting hairs.

gorbas · Jun 2, 2019

Matt, I will give you a 30exp. roll of "NEW" Agfa APX-100 and roll of Kentmere 100 to try it yourself and report back? I did comparison test but did not have time to analyze it. This back and forth is simply crazy! It has been long time since anybody here saw any Simons post and so many things could change in heartbeat.

MattKing · Jun 2, 2019

Goran (and others),
I agree that this may be a somewhat academic discussion, but I don't think that simply comparing whether the films respond similarly to development says anything about whether they are the same.
Issues like anti-halation properties, resistance to curl, spectral response, reciprocity performance and a whole bunch of other factors could very well reveal substantial differences between the films.
More generally though, I would be concerned if Harman started re-branding their own products, given how important their contract coating business seems to be to them.

gorbas · Jun 2, 2019

Mirko from Foto impex said that recoating of "old" APX100 is impossible due to new EU regulation. It contained some restricted components in it. So it's gone forever! That should be clear. Even If Hartman changes speed of coating line it has right to consider it different product and has all rights to sell it to anybody under any name. It's their business.
As far as I'm concerned I will continue to support their Kentmire 100 product.
Matt, My offer to you still stands. I'm close to Canada line and can meet you for coffee.

pentaxuser · Jun 2, 2019

MattKing said:
Goran (and others),
I agree that this may be a somewhat academic discussion,
More generally though, I would be concerned if Harman started re-branding their own products, given how important their contract coating business seems to be to them.

I believe it is more than academic, Matt. It concerns the integrity of an ex-executive of Ilford whom most of us held, rightly or wrongly depending on what conclusion you reach about rebadging, in high regard. Each time this issue was raised on APUG I believe Simon was quick and consistent in denying any form of rebadging. If this was going on then at the very least he could have said nothing rather than mislead us at best

If after all, Ilford did do what Henning is saying it did and does, then it brings into question the integrity of Ilford's statements as a whole. I intend to write to them, give my definition of rebadging in the way stated by Henning and ask specifically if this was and is what they do.

I too will have a search for posts by Simon on the subject. Maybe others can try as well.

pentaxuser

MattKing · Jun 2, 2019

gorbas said:
Mirko from Foto impex said that recoating of "old" APX100 is impossible due to new EU regulation. It contained some restricted components in it. So it's gone forever! That should be clear. Even If Hartman changes speed of coating line it has right to consider it different product and has all rights to sell it to anybody under any name. It's their business.
As far as I'm concerned I will continue to support their Kentmire 100 product.
Matt, My offer to you still stands. I'm close to Canada line and can meet you for coffee.

Goran,
The idea of getting together for coffee is great, but I don't think I'm the one to do the comparison test.
That job should probably fall to someone who likes to use things like densitometers, and that isn't me!

AgX · Jun 2, 2019

Well, I guess the statement fellows have in mind are these two from 2009 at the introduction of Kentmere labelled films:

Simon R Galley said:
KENTMERE film is absolutely BRAND new, 2 new emulsions, 35mm only, at a competitive price, it is not a 'rebadged' ILFORD Film, I think I have stated many times WE DO NOT SUPPLY PRIVATE LABEL even to a BRAND we own.

Simon R Galley said:
On questions regarding private label : NO CHANGE : On taking over the business it has always been quite clear the management of HARMAN technology Limited would end all 'private label' deals for ILFORD Photo products, we obviously now own KENTMERE where the same strategy will be applied, as you know we will make for other brands such as BERGGER where entirely new products are coated as we continue to value and ensure that the widest possible choice exists for monochrome.

MattKing · Jun 2, 2019

Thank you AgX.
To satisfy my curiosity, do you think you could share the link to the thread itself.
I looked for that, off and on, for much of the day!

MattKing · Jun 2, 2019

Never mind - it was the "private label" reference that allowed me to use the search function effectively:
https://www.photrio.com/forum/threa...-mr-galley-will-know.45524/page-4#post-656344

AgX · Jun 2, 2019

Matt, hitting the little arrow to the right of the member's name in a quote will bring you to the respective thread.
Then looking at the URL you will read the thread title, without even scrolling.

My quotes are both from one thread, the first on the introduction of Kentmere films.

Developer recomendations for AGFA APX 400?

Henning Serger

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