Developer goes black

hiroh · Oct 9, 2022

I developed Tri-X 400 with Rodinal at 1+25 dillution and was ok.

Then I had to develop a roll of T-Max 3200 that I previously accidentally exposed to light. Anyway, I decided to give it a try and see if there's something to be saved. However....

I used the same dillution 1+25, but two minutes longer in developer, according to the Massive Dev Chart. When I poured the developer out, it was completely dark. I never seen such dark developer and it was a fresh mixed solution with the same Rodinal that I use almost every day.

WhenI finish the whole development, the film was completely black. I cannot even say faint, because you can barely see there's an image even on the direct strong light. This doesn't seem like a light leak. Yes, there are some streaks that looks like light leaks, but this is a solid black throughout the whole roll, edge to egde, left to right, up to down.

Anyone have an idea what happened here? Why does the same developer, stopbath and fixer developed Tri-X perfectly and T-Max went completely black? So, the only difference in the whole process was that extra two minutes of development for T-Max.

Ian Grant · Oct 9, 2022

hiroh said:
Then I had to develop a roll of T-Max 3200 that I previously accidentally exposed to light. Anyway, I decided to give it a try and see if there's something to be saved. However....

You answered your own question, that's what happens when a film is fogged and especially a fast film like Tmax 3200..

Ian

hiroh · Oct 9, 2022

Hi Ian, that's what I thought, but my usual light leaks are more partial, I never seen the entire roll black like this.

So, what then caused the coloring of the developer? Is this the characteristic of T-MaX 3200 (which I never developed before, this was my first time), or the fact that the film was exposed to light?

Ian Grant · Oct 9, 2022

Hard to say why the developer has gone black, I don't use Tmax 3200. however as the film was fogged it's likely that the Rodinal was exhausted, and oxidised. There can be dyes in emulsions, I've had developer turned dark blue or green. also red.

Ian

hiroh · Oct 9, 2022

Ian Grant said:
Hard to say why the developer has gone black, I don't use Tmax 3200. however as the film was fogged it's likely that the Rodinal was exhausted, and oxidised. There can be dyes in emulsions, I've had developer turned dark blue or green. also red.

Ian

No, the Rodinal is ok. This is a new bottle, opened 3 days ago and I developed a roll of Tri-X minutes before I started developing T-Max. With Tri-X develope was clear as every time before. This is the first time I see black liquid out of my tank.

BMbikerider · Oct 9, 2022

I have never known a dye per se in an ordinary B&W film (XP2 is the exception.) Unless it was the anti halation backing in the T Max 3200.
There is no indication that the same Rodinal developer used in a previous film was reused, all that was said 'he used the same dilution'. I have known some strange developers solution colouring from films such as Foma 200 in 120 format (usually green) and some C41 colour negative films, (pink) but never any that made the film go black.

Ian Grant · Oct 9, 2022

hiroh said:
No, the Rodinal is ok. This is a new bottle, opened 3 days ago and I developed a roll of Tri-X minutes before I started developing T-Max. With Tri-X develope was clear as every time before. This is the first time I see black liquid out of my tank.

I meant the dilute Rodinal, that would have been exhausted.

BMbikerider said:
I have never known a dye per se in an ordinary B&W film (XP2 is the exception.) Unless it was the anti halation backing in the T Max 3200.
There is no indication that the same Rodinal developer used in a previous film was reused, all that was said 'he used the same dilution'. I have known some strange developers solution colouring from films such as Foma 200 in 120 format (usually green) and some C41 colour negative films, (pink) but never any that made the film go black.

There are blue/magenta and red dyes used in Tmax films, the high Iodide levels as well as the dyes inhibits fixing slightly.

To quote the late Ron Mowrey "New films use a combination of layered dyes and dyes complexed with Osmium compounds (2 electron sensitization). These dyes can leave a pink or magenta stain in some films. Since dyes have a positive charge, acid fixers are more prone to this. Since high Iodide and strong dyes inhibit fixation, longer fix times and longer wash times are needed, especially if you season or re-use your fixer and especially if it is acid or neutral."

The OP's film went black because it had been fogged. Normally only a percentage of the silver halide in a film gets developed, (less than 40%), and none to Dmax. In this case the whole emulsion was fully developed to close to Dmax which would exhaust a dilute developer like Rodinal.

It's some years since I used Tmax films, but my Fixer would turn pale red with Tmax 100, and you need to fix for longer to remove the pink cast in the negatives. The dye colour would break down and clear after a while in the fixer.

There are dye sensitisers in Ilford's Delta films as well, these tend to be removed during development and not remain in the emulsion.

Ian

Daniela · Oct 9, 2022

Ian Grant said:
There are dye sensitisers in Ilford's Delta films as well, these tend to be removed during development and not remain in the emulsion.

Ian

So I guess those dyes would explain why the fixer and water came out magenta yesterday when I developed two rolls of Delta 400...It had not happened before. I just changed the fixer from Ilford rapid to Tetenal's Superfix, would their different chemical compositions make the film react differently? Thank you!

PS: film is dry now and no magenta coloring remains.

Ian Grant · Oct 9, 2022

Tetenal Superfix is pH 5 (approx), Hypam and Ilford Rapid Fixer pH 5.4 slightly less acidic, the dyes are more visible in a slightly more acidic fixer like the Tetenal one.

I think my developer is more magenta after use with Delta 400, it's not a film I use a lot as it's not available as sheet film

Ian

BMbikerider · Oct 9, 2022

hiroh said:
I developed Tri-X 400 with Rodinal at 1+25 dillution and was ok.

Then I had to develop a roll of T-Max 3200 that I previously accidentally exposed to light. Anyway, I decided to give it a try and see if there's something to be saved. However....

I used the same dillution 1+25, but two minutes longer in developer, according to the Massive Dev Chart. When I poured the developer out, it was completely dark. I never seen such dark developer and it was a fresh mixed solution with the same Rodinal that I use almost every day.

WhenI finish the whole development, the film was completely black. I cannot even say faint, because you can barely see there's an image even on the direct strong light. This doesn't seem like a light leak. Yes, there are some streaks that looks like light leaks, but this is a solid black throughout the whole roll, edge to egde, left to right, up to down.

Anyone have an idea what happened here? Why does the same developer, stopbath and fixer developed Tri-X perfectly and T-Max went completely black? So, the only difference in the whole process was that extra two minutes of development for T-Max.

I don't know if we are interpreting the original post from different angles. It was stated that the developer was dark after developing the TMax. I am not arguing the point that the film was fogged hence the black emulsion.

The developer may or may not have been exhausted, that does not explain why it went dark. I like many others have in the past inadvertently used exhausted developer in the past but it was never more than slightly 'off colour' before or after the developing stage was over.

He went on the say in the last paragraph that the developer, stop-bath and fixer all went black. I can understand the developer (up to a point) but not the stop and fixer bath too they are entirely different and react likewise.

Daniela · Oct 9, 2022

Ian Grant said:
Tetenal Superfix is pH 5 (approx), Hypam and Ilford Rapid Fixer pH 5.4 slightly less acidic, the dyes are more visible in a slightly more acidic fixer like the Tetenal one.

I think my developer is more magenta after use with Delta 400, it's not a film I use a lot as it's not available as sheet film

Ian

I see. Thank you for the explanation!

Ian Grant · Oct 9, 2022

We should say it's an observation, rather than an issue, with all but Tmax films, and even then just fixing a little longer clears the dyes. I've never heard of any issues in over 30+ years.

Ian

reddesert · Oct 9, 2022

BMbikerider said:
I don't know if we are interpreting the original post from different angles. It was stated that the developer was dark after developing the TMax. I am not arguing the point that the film was fogged hence the black emulsion.

The developer may or may not have been exhausted, that does not explain why it went dark. I like many others have in the past inadvertently used exhausted developer in the past but it was never more than slightly 'off colour' before or after the developing stage was over.

He went on the say in the last paragraph that the developer, stop-bath and fixer all went black. I can understand the developer (up to a point) but not the stop and fixer bath too they are entirely different and react likewise.

A totally fogged film could exhaust a dilute developer even in one-shot, because there is so much silver to develop. I took that to be Ian's point.

I don't think the OP says that the stop bath and fixer came out black, but that the film was black and the developer poured out dark.

IME (addressing Daniela's point) there are sensitizing dyes in B+W films, especially "modern" emulsions, that come out in the fixer or wash aid, and can make the solution colored, typically pink, magenta or bluish. The tint isn't retained by the film or subsequent films, that is, when T-max colors my fixer purple, and I fix another film in it, the second film doesn't become purple.

RalphLambrecht · Oct 9, 2022

Ian Grant said:
We should say it's an observation, rather than an issue, with all but Tmax films, and even then just fixing a little longer clears the dyes. I've never heard of any issues in over 30+ years.

Ian

matches my experience; and even an extended wash will clear most of the remaining dye and exposing the dried film to to daylight will do the rest after a while. In any event, residual dye is of no consequence to image quality.

250swb · Oct 10, 2022

Some films have stronger anti-halation coatings than others, and these wash out in the developer and colour it. Equally some developers are intended to oxidise during development and this can further colour the developer. But if the T-Max 3200 is old I wouldn't be at all surprised if it came out black and with no images on it. High speed films like T-Max 3200 and Ilford Delta 3200 die very soon after the expiration date even if kept in a fridge or frozen, the overall darkness is the base fog and there will be no images among the base fog because the film has lost all it's sensitivity. I've thrown T-Max away before now and threw away eight rolls of out of date Delta 3200 last week for the same reason, it is caput!

NB23 · Oct 10, 2022

Totally normal. Rodinal comes out very dark with some films.

Oddly very satisfying.

pentaxuser · Oct 10, 2022

NB23 said:
Totally normal. Rodinal comes out very dark with some films.

Oddly very satisfying.

Which films, if I may ask?

Thanks

pentaxuser

NB23 · Oct 10, 2022

pentaxuser said:
Which films, if I may ask?

Thanks

pentaxuser

iirc Tmax400

pentaxuser · Oct 10, 2022

NB23 said:
iirc Tmax400

Thanks. So this was your experience with TMax 400 and Rodinal and no other film? It was your use of iirc that suggested that you may not be sure if it was TMax 400? Any others you recall turning Rodinal dark? Did you prewash the Tmax 400? My TMax 400 came out a very dark blue after a pre- wash which I imagine would have affected the colour of any developer I had used, had I not pre-washed.

Hiroh's problem was with P3200. Did this happen with P3200 or was this one you never used with Rodinal?

pentaxuser

NB23 · Oct 10, 2022

pentaxuser said:
Thanks. So this was your experience with TMax 400 and Rodinal and no other film? It was your use of iirc that suggested that you may not be sure if it was TMax 400? Any others you recall turning Rodinal dark? Did you prewash the Tmax 400? My TMax 400 came out a very dark blue after a pre- wash which I imagine would have affected the colour of any developer I had used, had I not pre-washed.

Hiroh's problem was with P3200. Did this happen with P3200 or was this one you never used with Rodinal?

pentaxuser

Man, my film use is massive, as opposed to the regular film user on this forum. I use a lot of films, a lot of different ones, all the time, everyday.

I have spent the past 45 days developing a lot of films everyday. Cutting, scanning the color ones, contact sheets... 120, 35mm, ilfosol-3, d76, d76 1;1, ilfotc-hc, hc110, c-41...

You think I am impressed when I see green D76 coming out of fomapan 400, or Black rodinal from Tmax400 or Pink Ilfosol out of TMAX100?

No.

And I don’t keep notes on such things. And I will tell you that it’s all totally normal.

Ian Grant · Oct 11, 2022

NB23 said:
And I don’t keep notes on such things. And I will tell you that it’s all totally normal.

Like you, I don't keep notes on trivia like the colour of spent developer, but it's quite normal as you say. It varies a lot between films, some is dyes incorporated in the emulsion, it can also be the anti-halation dyes.

It;s not a problem, or cause for concern.

Ian

Developer goes black

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