Developer for higher temp areas

I live in Texas...we are cheap so we keep the house 80f in the summer. I was wondering if there was a developer out there that is not affected by temps or one that tolerates higher temps well.

I have rodinal and have been using ice to get the temp to 68f...but this is a pain. I know I can compensate but I have yet to find a clear answer on proper compensation. I also want to try some new developers. Right now I have tmax 400 and acros 100 in my cameras. These are my two go to films. Feel free to make some suggestions.

High temperatures not only increase dev action directly, they also cause the gelatine to swell. Sodium sulfate (not sulfite! ) is known to prevent this and is a part of many recipes for tropical temperatures. The film developer recipe list on digitaltruth has quite some recipes for your purpose.

If you are not ready to mix the whole developer from raw chemicals, you might start with adding similar amounts of sodium sulfate (50-100g/l) to your Rodinal working solution. Since you decrease gelatine swelling, you will need longer dev times, you may have to experiment a bit.

Most B&W developers work over a range of temperatures. Usually anything from 20C to 24C (68F to 75F) is usable. Developing at higher temperatures results in very short developing times that often lead to uneven development.

But you can use the highest temperature within the acceptable range. There is nothing magical about 20C/68F.

For example, T-Max films develop correctly in T-Max Developer from 20C to 24C. Kodak lists T-Max 100 in T-Max Developer at:

8 minutes at 20C

7 minutes at 22C

6.5 minutes at 24C

You can easily interpolate for intermediate temperatures. It should be much easier to maintain a 24C working temperature water bath than one of 20C in the conditions you describe.

See page 10 here

http://www.kodak.com/global/en/professional/support/techPubs/j86/j86.pdf

Is your tap water temp also 80F or a bit cooler? Ilford's developers can be used at 24C / 75F. Check the ilford website at www.ilfordphoto.com. They list the times for the Tmax 400 and acros 100 at 24C/75F. I usually develop at 24C when the "cold" tap water is above 20C during a hot summer. You can put your tank in a tub with cold water during the development or go to the basement where's it's probably a bit cooler.

Tap right now is 80, and since the house is 80 distilled water when I use it will also be at this temp.

Last night I did a weird experiment. I stand developed tmax 400 in 1:100 rodinal for 1 hour. I started the temp at 62 using ice and at the end of the 1 hour development temp was at 75. Results were actually good.

I live in Florida and am faced with the same problem. I use a water bath to maintain the developer temperature to 21 or 24 C. depending on the developer Once development is complete I allow the bath to warm up since the wash will be at room temperature.

The problem with developing at higher temperature is that developers with 2 or more developing agents do not behave linearly with temperature. Each developing agent has a different temperature coefficient.

I live in Arizona and keep a jug of distilled water in the refrigerator to mix with room temp water to get the Rodinal to 68 degrees. Fixer goes into an ice bath to 68 degrees +/-.

I understand being cheap if your health affords it. But... for your film processing... buy a water chiller for a cooled and temperature-stabilized film bath from pre-soak through wash. Your images will thank you for it. Controlled temperature stabilized processing from start-to-finish DEFINITELY shows.

I live in Durban which is a subtropical climate. I keep my ID-11 stock, stop bath and fixer in the refrigerator at around 40F. Mixed 1:1 with tap water makes it about 60F. I microwave it to get it to 67F, and microwave the other chemicals to about the same temp. After 11 minutes developing, without water bath or anything, the temp is around 69F and I figure that +- 1 degree F is good enough. It seems to work for Delta 100.

Hi folks,

as far as I know, developers with just one developer agent, like Metol, are easier to handle at high temperatures. So check for Microdol X, Perceptol, D23.
You said you're cheap, so mix your own D23 and be happy with 1+3
convenient times at high temperatures...

I don't know how good you are with tools, or if you're risk adverse, but perhaps you could hack a single bottle wine chiller (waterless type) into the bottom of a small styrofoam cooler. A quick google had quite a few models and some were pretty cheap. It would probably look pretty frankenstein but if it works who cares.

s-a

Diafine is a good choice. Two-part compensating developer that's insensitive to both time and temperature.

Soak in Part A, then in Part B, for five minutes each at any temp from 70 to 85 degrees F.

Very long shelf life. Replenish by replacing the lost volume of Part A, then adding an equal volume of fresh Part B to its storage bottle before returning the remaining used Part B.

- Leigh

Gerald C Koch said:

The problem with developing at higher temperature is that developers with 2 or more developing agents do not behave linearly with temperature. Each developing agent has a different temperature coefficient.

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So things should be a lot easier with the Rodinal the thread starter uses: there's only one dev agent in Rodinal.

Rudeofus said:

So things should be a lot easier with the Rodinal the thread starter uses: there's only one dev agent in Rodinal.

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Rodinal is not a good choice for working at higher temperatures due to the free hydroxide it contains, this significantly softens emulsions, some worse than others. If you do a search you'll find that many German workers recommend using Rodinal below 20°C (68°F) often working at 16° or 18°C.

Over the past 6 yeras I've spent most of each year in Turkey on the Aegean coast where the temperature's rarely below 30°C except for the winter months and rises into the 40's in the summer, from about now onwards the water temperature's a steady 26-27°C

My current choice of developer - Pyrocat HD - happens to be ideal for these conditions because of the tanning effects of the Pyrocatechin and I work to the ambient temperature of the water supply. At higher temperatures any deviations in the process temperature has a larger effect but by working this way it's easy to maintain athe temperature to +/- 0.2°C something that surprised me at first.

Ian

Ian Grant said:

Rodinal is not a good choice for working at higher temperatures due to the free hydroxide it contains, this significantly softens emulsions, some worse than others. If you do a search you'll find that many German workers recommend using Rodinal below 20°C (68°F) often working at 16° or 18°C.

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Wouldn't the 50-100 g/l extra sodium sulfate I recommended together with Rodinal solve this problem?

Rudeofus said:

Wouldn't the 50-100 g/l extra sodium sulfate I recommended together with Rodinal solve this problem?

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It may well help but it's certainly not the most practical option, it's adding an extra step to a processing session. Choosing a different developer with no Hydroxide in it is easier.

Ian

Ian Grant said:

It may well help but it's certainly not the most practical option, it's adding an extra step to a processing session. Choosing a different developer with no Hydroxide in it is easier.

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I have suggested a list of recipes on digitaltruth, but in my experience there are few to no prepackaged tropical devs available commercially. Most suggestions here so far were contraptions and/or techniques for lowering tank temperature. Adding 50-100g/l Na2SO4 to a dev solution is cheap and trivial and would not qualify as extra processing step in my books. I don't know how much experience shuttershane has with home brewing, but adding one compound way below its solubility limit with little concern for exact quantities should be doable by anyone.

I strongly disagree because you've got to add the 100g/litre of Sodium Sulphate each time you make up the Rodinal. Sodium Sulphate is also relatively expensive it's now nearly £30 ($50) for 500g here in the UK, it is less in the US at the moment but you can add an additional cost of around $2-5 per litre of developer which hardly ranks as cheap and trivial.

Tropical developers went out of use because with most modern film the hardening allows processing at 26/27°C (80°F) in almost all developers with no issues. The exceptions are Adox/EFKE films which have scant hardening and some faster films processed in Rodinal.

It's far simpler and very significantly cheaper to just switch to a developer that needs nothing added to work OK at a higher temperature.

Ian

There are several strategies to deal with this. You need to consider the options and choose what is best for your situation.

1. Complete temperature control. This requires chillers, etc. to keep your chemicals at the required temperature for the entire processing time. Upside: ideal temperature control. Downside: expensive.

2. Ambient temperature processing. This requires you find a developer and dilution that does the job for you. Pyrocat or PMK may be good choices. Rodinal, as mentioned, is probably not. Upside: no added expense. Downsides: 1. You need to know your ambient temperature at the time of processing and adjust development times for variations accordingly. There are charts/tables for this, so it's not really that difficult, just one more thing to do. You may also have to adjust developer dilution and do tests to find your best developing times for higher temperatures in order to keep developing times from becoming too short. You may also have to experiment with some developers till you find one that works well. That said, once dialed in, this should be a good and economical solution. As Ian mentions, most modern films can be processed at 80°F with no concerns with many developers.

3. Temperature control with a water bath. This is not as precise as using a chiller with a thermostat, but works pretty well. You would have to keep some water in the refrigerator to mix chemicals and your water bath with. The idea is to have a large tub of tempered water that the chemicals can be immersed in in order to keep them from warming too quickly. The larger the volume of water in your bath, the slower it will warm. When processing, keep the tank and the not-yet-used chemicals immersed in the water bath except for agitation. Starting at 68° with an 80° ambient temperature will likely result in the temperature rising a few degrees by the end of processing. However, if you are consistent, this will not be an issue.

If you use tanks for roll films, the water-bath method works really well. Just pick up a tub large enough for all your chemical containers and tanks and a couple of gallon jugs to keep in the fridge (I bet you have drinking water there already, which would work just fine for your application).

If you tray develop sheet film, on the other hand, a water bath is a bit harder to manage. I usually have my developing trays inside the next larger size trays with water baths, but this is a relatively smaller volume of water and the temperature rise during processing might be larger if there is a significant difference between processing and ambient temperatures. Still, if you are consistent, there will be no problems. However, if the ambient temperature is a lot different in winter than in summer, or fluctuates a lot, this will be harder to control. Simplest in this case would be one of the first two methods.

Best,

Doremus

Thank you all for the suggestions.

I think I may try out the Pyro path. It is something that I have been wanting to try anyway.

Ian Grant said:

I strongly disagree because you've got to add the 100g/litre of Sodium Sulphate each time you make up the Rodinal. Sodium Sulphate is also relatively expensive it's now nearly £30 ($50) for 500g here in the UK, it is less in the US at the moment but you can add an additional cost of around $2-5 per litre of developer which hardly ranks as cheap and trivial.

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I have no idea what causes this insane price for such a simple compound in the UK, I paid less than 5 Euros including container for a whole kilogram of sodium sulfate. At 30 pounds for 500g it is certainly not an option. Are you 100% sure this isn't some reagent grade purity you got the quote for? Sodium sulfate is one of the cheapest and most produced chemical compounds worldwide ....

If pyro devs indeed work at elevated temperatures they are certainly preferable to self mix experiments unless one enjoys doing them.

I took the UK & US prices from leading photographic suppliers, in fact it's cheaper elsewhere here in the UK but still over £13 +20% VAT for 500g, that drops to around £8 per Kg + 20% VAT if you buy 25kg. There's something going on with the prices as my main supplier lists it as POA (so the prices are varying).

A far cheaper option which I used regularly with EFKE/Adox films in the 70's and 80's, (before their hardening was improved), is to add a few drops of Formaldehyde to the developer just before use.

Ian

I too live in a hot climate area. This is a good list of suggestions to try!

My water temperature during the summer is 26-27, even winter temps are 22.
I just process at ambient temperature with whatever temp the water is using Pyrocat HD or Thorntons divided D23.
This works well for me.

1) I put the chemical bottles in the refrigerator for 20 to 30 minutes. Then a process at the temperature the chemicals have cooled to.

2) Switch to C-41 or E-6 film and processing.