Developed expired TMax 100, total fail

Derek Ealy · Apr 9, 2020

Hi

I've recently gotten back into shooting film and am teaching my daughter. We've successfully (that might be generous) developed several rolls of expired Tri-X in D-76 1:1 over the past couple of weeks. Today we went to develop some 15+ year old TMax 100 and the film came out totally blank. My daughter commented that the chemicals were kind of pink when we poured them out. I brushed it off since this was the first time I've ever developed TMax myself.

These same chemicals successfully developed Tri-X a few days ago. The only thing really different that we tried was pre-wetting the film before adding developer in an effort to combat the white pinhole spots we've seen on a number of frames on our previous rolls of Tri-X. I was assuming that the pinhole spots were bubbles on the film. We were much more aggressive about knocking the processing container on the counter during development also.

Any ideas of what we might have done wrong? D-76 development time was 9:30 at 68F/20C, followed by Kodak Indicator Stop Bath, Kodafix, Kodak Hypo Clearing agent and a wash of 10 min.

Thanks, Derek

Donald Qualls · Apr 9, 2020

If there are edge markings on the film (usually film type, often a product number, and frame numbers) your process worked and you developed a roll of unexposed film (camera loading errors can do this). If it's 35mm, you should also see the black leader in this case.

If the leader (if present) is clear and there are no edge markings either, you probably got crossed up and fixed before you developed. If that's the case, you might also have cross-contraminated your chemicals; it would be prudent to discard both and mix fresh.

The pink color is common in TMax films -- it's due to the sensitizing dyes. Your fixer will often pick up some of that color, and your wash sometimes will; you'll sometimes see some pink left in the film base as well (which many will say indicates it's underfixed).

MattKing · Apr 9, 2020

Welcome to Photrio.
What Donald said.
In either case, you will have suffered one of those mishaps which have happened to most of us at one time or other - so a learning opportunity for both you and your daughter!

Derek Ealy · Apr 9, 2020

These two rolls of film were shot on different cameras. My M5 and her K1000. I'm pretty diligent about emphasizing the need to see the rewind knob turning as the film is advanced. And also getting her to feel for when the film comes off of the advance spool (during rewind) so she can leave some leader out.

My roll from the M5 shows some black leader, her roll from the Pentax doesn't so that is a bit perplexing. There are no writing marks on the sides of either roll. I was watching her pretty closely when lining up the chemicals before we started. We use separate working bottles for dev, stop, fix, clear. I'm quite confident we didn't get the sequencing wrong. We used the Massive Dev Chart app for timings so that should have been good also.

I am pretty confused right now.

MattKing · Apr 9, 2020

If for any reason your developer is contaminated and therefore incapable of developing the film, the fixer will remove everything, including the edge writing.
And of course, if you went straight from pre-wet to stop bath you would get the same result.
It isn't clear to me - are there two rolls that came out blank - one from your camera and one from your daughter's?

removed account4 · Apr 9, 2020

hi Derek. welcome to photrio
sorry for your troubles ... on top of what Donald and matt suggested
.. the rolls that came out before ( tri x ) where they shot in the same cameras ?
maybe. the shutter wasn't actually tripping on the k1000 ? no markings &c might
mean absolutely no light struck it and .. its blank.. often times blanks are "user error"
or "equipment failure". I shoot a lot of heavily expired tmx (100 ). and it usually holds up pretty well
maybe in 15 years 1 stop of speed loss .. depending on how it was stored ...
to cross equipment failure off the list of possibilities .. open the backs and fire the shutter at a bunch of
speeds and see if it is actually working. have fun !
John

Donald Qualls · Apr 9, 2020

One roll partially developed (to show the black leader), other roll completely blank, suggests insufficient developer volume (375 ml in a 750 ml tank, give or take), possibly also contaminated or exhausted developer. Was thje developer in an airtight bottle with the air squeezed out? D-76 can go bad in a matter of days if it's got access to oxygen.

BTW, I disagree with @jnantz -- even if you develop a roll fresh out of the box you should see the edge markings. Kodak, Ilford, Fuji, Foma, and Adox all edge mark their film, and Freestyle .EDU Ultra (rebranded Foma) has .EDU Ultra on the edge along with frame numbers -- TMax should say TMAX and the speed between frame numbers.

Alan Edward Klein · Apr 9, 2020

Why would you want to learn a new trade with broken tools? Shouldn't you be using fresh film? It's tough enough to learn proper procedures working with good equipment so you can learn consistency.

removed account4 · Apr 9, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
BTW, I disagree with @jnantz

. huh, I thought no edge markings meant no exposure .. its nice to be wrong and corrected !
thanks !
John

Derek Ealy · Apr 9, 2020

We've successfully developed the Tri-X shot in both cameras. Her roll was shot at ASA 50, mine at 100.

We mixed the D-76 last weekend and successfully developed 2 rolls the same day. The developer used today was 500ml out of a full 1L bottle mixed just a few days ago. The processing tank is the kind that holds 2 rolls and says it needs 489ml of chemicals.

The expired film was what I had lying around the house when she first brought all this up. Since it took a few days for the new film to arrive I thought giving it a try couldn't hurt. From everything I've read it seems that the expired nature of the film still should have produced something (though likely flawed).

The only thing I can think of is that maybe I somehow got my bottles mixed up when I wrote the labels on them after mixing the D-76 and Kodafix last weekend. The development I did last weekend was out of the gallon mixing jug, before I portioned it out into the 1L bottles.

Ok smart people, what is the best way for me to test that I have developer in the developer bottle and fixer in the fix bottle?

Alan Edward Klein · Apr 9, 2020

Derek Ealy said:
We've successfully developed the Tri-X shot in both cameras. Her roll was shot at ASA 50, mine at 100.

We mixed the D-76 last weekend and successfully developed 2 rolls the same day. The developer used today was 500ml out of a full 1L bottle mixed just a few days ago. The processing tank is the kind that holds 2 rolls and says it needs 489ml of chemicals.

The expired film was what I had lying around the house when she first brought all this up. Since it took a few days for the new film to arrive I thought giving it a try couldn't hurt. From everything I've read it seems that the expired nature of the film still should have produced something (though likely flawed).

The only thing I can think of is that maybe I somehow got my bottles mixed up when I wrote the labels on them after mixing the D-76 and Kodafix last weekend. The development I did last weekend was out of the gallon mixing jug, before I portioned it out into the 1L bottles.

Ok smart people, what is the best way for me to test that I have developer in the developer bottle and fixer in the fix bottle?

How can a beginner know they're processing properly if the film isn't fresh? You're adding an unknown variable.

MattKing · Apr 9, 2020

Derek Ealy said:
We've successfully developed the Tri-X shot in both cameras. Her roll was shot at ASA 50, mine at 100.

We mixed the D-76 last weekend and successfully developed 2 rolls the same day. The developer used today was 500ml out of a full 1L bottle mixed just a few days ago. The processing tank is the kind that holds 2 rolls and says it needs 489ml of chemicals.

The expired film was what I had lying around the house when she first brought all this up. Since it took a few days for the new film to arrive I thought giving it a try couldn't hurt. From everything I've read it seems that the expired nature of the film still should have produced something (though likely flawed).

The only thing I can think of is that maybe I somehow got my bottles mixed up when I wrote the labels on them after mixing the D-76 and Kodafix last weekend. The development I did last weekend was out of the gallon mixing jug, before I portioned it out into the 1L bottles.

Ok smart people, what is the best way for me to test that I have developer in the developer bottle and fixer in the fix bottle?

Put a drop of developer on a scrap of undeveloped film, and a drop of fixer on another scrap of undevelioped film - a piece of the end of the leader is fine - and then report back on what you see.
Good luck!

Vaughn · Apr 9, 2020

MattKing said:
Put a drop of developer on a scrap of undeveloped film, and a drop of fixer on another scrap of undevelioped film - a piece of the end of the leader is fine - and then report back on what you see.
Good luck!

Then shake it all about!

Beginners learn by making mistakes...I tend to learn more by trying to figure out what went wrong than what went right. But I keep notes just in case It does.

Derek Ealy · Apr 10, 2020

In the attached photo at the top is a drop from the fixer bottle. It is clear and you can see the corner of the photo frame.

Below is drops from 2 of the developer bottles that I had portioned out a few days ago. Nothing much happened on either side of the film with the developer drops.

MattKing · Apr 10, 2020

Derek Ealy said:
Below is drops from 2 of the developer bottles that I had portioned out a few days ago. Nothing much happened on either side of the film with the developer drops.

It is hard to see in the image posted, but if the areas where you have added drops of developer haven't darkened, then your developer is dead.
Try another test roll if you want, but if it were me I would replace the developer.
Maybe there was some contaminant in the smaller bottles.

koraks · Apr 10, 2020

Alan Edward Klein said:
How can a beginner know they're processing properly if the film isn't fresh? You're adding an unknown variable.

Sure, 'fresh everything' removes any of those variables. However, in this particular case, the outdated nature of the film is not the issue. Two reasons:
1: Tmax 100 is probably the best aging film out there. 15 years old it can still be expected to work virtually as new.
2: The effects of aging will mostly be added fog. Since the film came out blank, the problem is certainly not due to the film being old.

NB23 · Apr 10, 2020

This is not developed, nor fixed.

Looks like you used water for all baths.

railwayman3 · Apr 10, 2020

Processed film blank but showing edge markings = exposure or camera fault (or unexposed film processed).

Completely blank film = processing fault. (Probably developer.....bad fixer would leave a milky effect on the emulsion? )

(And a 15 y.o. Tri-X film (even if very badly stored), when correctly processed, should show some kind of image, even if only bad fogging) .

Alan Edward Klein · Apr 10, 2020

koraks said:
Sure, 'fresh everything' removes any of those variables. However, in this particular case, the outdated nature of the film is not the issue. Two reasons:
1: Tmax 100 is probably the best aging film out there. 15 years old it can still be expected to work virtually as new.
2: The effects of aging will mostly be added fog. Since the film came out blank, the problem is certainly not due to the film being old.

Refrigerated, freezer or household ambient temperature?

koraks · Apr 10, 2020

Alan Edward Klein said:
Refrigerated, freezer or household ambient temperature?

All of the above. >15 yr old tmax stored in a garage in abysmal conditions (the larger part of a 100ft roll). 7 years refrigerated, consecutively the first handful of frames exposed in a Mamiya 645 and then left to sit for another 4-5 years. Stored for years on a windowsill facing south, behind glass. Etc. All produced perfectly printable negatives with no apparent quality loss.

StepheKoontz · Apr 10, 2020

This sounds like chemistry contamination/mix-up to me. I store D-76 stock for weeks in half full bottles and it still works fine, so I don't believe it went bad that quickly. I'm assuming you are using the D-76 one shot? You didn't say if you were. The other chemistry can be reused to exhaustion, but the developer should be used one shot. It has nothing to do with pre-soak, I pre-soak all my films, especially T-max.

Pioneer · Apr 10, 2020

Alan Edward Klein said:
Refrigerated, freezer or household ambient temperature?

I am using Kodak TMAX100 that expired in 1995. I still have several bricks.

It sits on a shelf above my window. with no particular care in storage. It works fine and I see no significant difference between my stock and fresh.

I do have fresher stock but I am waiting until it ages properly before I use it.

Alan Edward Klein · Apr 10, 2020

Pioneer said:
I am using Kodak TMAX100 that expired in 1995. I still have several bricks.

It sits on a shelf above my window. with no particular care in storage. It works fine and I see no significant difference between my stock and fresh.

I do have fresher stock but I am waiting until it ages properly before I use it.

Like good cheese or wine.

Derek Ealy · Apr 10, 2020

Pioneer said:
I am using Kodak TMAX100 that expired in 1995. I still have several bricks.

It sits on a shelf above my window. with no particular care in storage. It works fine and I see no significant difference between my stock and fresh.

I do have fresher stock but I am waiting until it ages properly before I use it.

Ha ha, I love it! Properly aged film. I guess I have a few rolls of that lying around. All of the Tri-X is used now. And I sacrificed my last roll of aged TMax 100 for the fix/developer test last night. I still have a couple of rolls of Velvia and one roll of Delta 3200 that are aged though. Come to think of it I think I also have some 4x5 sheets of velvia in the back of the fridge. I no longer have a 4x5 camera though.

@StepheKoontz I am only using my D-76 one shot.

I really doubt that I mixed up multiple bottles of my developer. It was divided into 2 1L and 1 1/2 gallon jugs. I'm thinking that there must have been something left over in the bottles that caused the contamination. I did wash the bottles before adding the developer last weekend. But maybe that wasn't enough. I'll be ordering new bottles and more chemicals and will try again. Of course both B&H and Adorama are closed all week for Passover. Amazon's prices are inflated for photo chemistry. Where else is a good place to buy replacement chemistry?

StepheKoontz · Apr 10, 2020

Derek Ealy said:
. Where else is a good place to buy replacement chemistry?

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