Devastated

TiborDublin · Aug 4, 2020

Hi,
I'm new to medium format photography. I went to college and did film, I also used light meter a lot when shot with digital in studio.

Recently I purchased a Mamiya rb67 and went out for a shoot. I shot with Ilford hp5 400 ISO.

I got the negs today and turned out that I only took actually two photos. Well, there was only two photos visible on them anyway.

My question is, should I get the camera checked or it's just rookie mistake and I just have to get used to it? I used a seconic light meter with the dome out, I genuinely thought my exposure was spot on, not sure what happened and I'm a little pissed off as I do understand the basics of photography, I took my time, measured everything twice, three times, I'm puzzled.

Any advice would be highly appreciated, I have another roll at the lab now (delta 400) and I'm embarrassed going to collect it.

Thanks

abruzzi · Aug 4, 2020

I don't know the RB at all, but from what I've read, it has very little to stop you from missing a step. I'd try a few more rolls, and be very deliberate about each step. I'd also point out, that this is one of the reasons I suggest anyone that is shooting OLD film cameras get the gear and learn to develop B&W yourself. It means that you can run a test with a $4 roll of Foma or Ultrafine without having to pay someone another $10-$20 to process and scan. It allows for easy, and relatively low cost testing.

When you say you only got two shots out of it, there are a couple questions that need to be asked. First, were those shots normal? i.e. they weren't multiple shots overlaid. Second, the rest of the frames, wee they completely transparent, or is there a hint of image, or are they completely black (i.e. very overexposed)? Finally, were the two good frames at the beginning of the roll, or are they randomly spaced at different parts of the roll?

Neil Grant · Aug 4, 2020

...maybe your light meter is the problem. What would the 'sunny 16' rule indicate for exposure time and aperture? Does the camera seem to be functioning correctly? Try some tests without film. You can remove the back for this. Which model do you have?
Pro, Pro-S or Pro-SD? This tells us about the interlocks. We need more info to solve your problem. Definitely set yourself up to process be test films. This will save a pile of time and money.

Andrew O'Neill · Aug 4, 2020

Are you working in mirror up mode?

MattKing · Aug 4, 2020

Welcome to Photrio.
As Neil Grant asks, which model do you have, and which model back do you have on it?
If it is the original Pro, or if the back is an original Pro version, there are relatively few protective interlocks.
Is there any chance you forgot that after each photo you need to both raise the mirror/cock the shutter using the lever on the side, and also wind the film using the lever on the back?
With the Pro version, it is relatively easy to miss that last step.

mshchem · Aug 4, 2020

Manual available for a small donation

https://butkus.org/chinon/mamiya/mamiya_rb67_professional/mamiya_rb67_professional.htm

Sunny 16 rule to start!

MattKing · Aug 4, 2020

mshchem said:
Manual available for a small donation

https://butkus.org/chinon/mamiya/mamiya_rb67_professional/mamiya_rb67_professional.htm

Sunny 16 rule to start!

Note that that is the manual for the original Pro - when it comes to the interlocks, it is important to get the right version of the manual.

TiborDublin · Aug 4, 2020

Hi,
Thanks for the replies and the welcome.

abruzzi said:
When you say you only got two shots out of it, there are a couple questions that need to be asked. First, were those shots normal? i.e. they weren't multiple shots overlaid. Second, the rest of the frames, wee they completely transparent, or is there a hint of image, or are they completely black (i.e. very overexposed)? Finally, were the two good frames at the beginning of the roll, or are they randomly spaced at different parts of the roll?

The photos were two right after each other in the middle of the roll. The rest of the frames are blank (transparent), so absolutely underexposed, like I recorded nothing.
The camera is a pro SD with two old backs with the extra lever on them just under the counter, so have to release that, wind the film and cock the shutter, remove the dark slide. The camera feels OK to use but I'm no camera expert, not sure what it feels like if it's not right.

Are you working in mirror up mode? - Not sure, to be honest.

Thanks for the replies, I'll get a developer kit and liquid, there's only one place in Dublin where they still develop film, it is cheap though and ran by a very old guy, I don't mind supporting his business, saves the travel however

TiborDublin · Aug 4, 2020

mshchem said:
Manual available for a small donation

https://butkus.org/chinon/mamiya/mamiya_rb67_professional/mamiya_rb67_professional.htm

Sunny 16 rule to start!

Thanks

TiborDublin · Aug 4, 2020

Neil Grant said:
...maybe your light meter is the problem. What would the 'sunny 16' rule indicate for exposure time and aperture? Does the camera seem to be functioning correctly? Try some tests without film. You can remove the back for this. Which model do you have?
Pro, Pro-S or Pro-SD? This tells us about the interlocks. We need more info to solve your problem. Definitely set yourself up to process be test films. This will save a pile of time and money.

Not sure, it's never Sunny in Ireland, but I'll check as soon as the Sun is out The camera does seem to be functioning correctly, I mean it did take two crrect exposure so I assume I'm the one who f.cked up something, I'm just not sure what that was.
I have the Pro SD

TiborDublin · Aug 4, 2020

mshchem said:
Manual available for a small donation

https://butkus.org/chinon/mamiya/mamiya_rb67_professional/mamiya_rb67_professional.htm

Sunny 16 rule to start!

F16 ISO400 1/250

MattKing · Aug 4, 2020

TiborDublin said:
The camera is a pro SD with two old backs with the extra lever on them just under the counter, so have to release that, wind the film and cock the shutter, remove the dark slide.

This sounds like you have Pro backs on a Pro-SD, which means that when it comes to the interlocks, you need to use the camera as you would if it was an original Pro.
You make reference to removing the dark slide. The only time you need to have the dark slide in is when you are changing backs. Otherwise, the dark slide stays in the camera bag, or in its not so handy or reliable storage spot on the side of the camera - see the illustration in the manual.

TiborDublin · Aug 4, 2020

MattKing said:
This sounds like you have Pro backs on a Pro-SD, which means that when it comes to the interlocks, you need to use the camera as you would if it was an original Pro.
You make reference to removing the dark slide. The only time you need to have the dark slide in is when you are changing backs. Otherwise, the dark slide stays in the camera bag, or in its not so handy or reliable storage spot on the side of the camera - see the illustration in the manual.

The shutter can't be released with the slide in, I was just trying to make a point that the dark slide could not have been the problem as I removed it. But since I was able to take two correct exposures, I'm sure it was my fault

Neil Grant · Aug 4, 2020

TiborDublin said:
Not sure, it's never Sunny in Ireland, but I'll check as soon as the Sun is out The camera does seem to be functioning correctly, I mean it did take two crrect exposure so I assume I'm the one who f.cked up something, I'm just not sure what that was.
I have the Pro SD

..doesn't need to be sunny. It's just a method to estimate the accuracy of your meter without another meter that is KNOWN to be working accurately. The camera should take 10 exposures on 120 (not just two). You may have made an error (winding-on film before it has been exposed, or partly removing the dark slide) or possibly the shutter is tripping intermittently.

MattKing · Aug 4, 2020

TiborDublin said:
But since I was able to take two correct exposures, I'm sure it was my fault

It is too early to assign blame .
I used to have a 65mm lens for my RB that would, if I inadvertently bumped the flash synch setting over towards the M position, appear to work normally, but actually not open its shutter. I got blank frames when that happened.
As most of those lenses have never been used with M class flash bulbs, I expect there are a lot of RB lenses whose shutters won't work properly if they are inadvertently set to M.
Or you might have a lens and shutter where the mirror lock-up setting is partially engaged - the implementation of mirror lock-up on the RB lenses and shutters is something that sometimes requires maintenance in order to function properly.
Your lens might very well have a shutter that isn't working consistently, no matter what setting is being used for flash synch.
Or it might just be that you are unfamiliar with the operation of the camera, and with just a bit more practice it will work flawlessly.
Try taking photos without film in the camera, and while watching the shutter in the lens operate. There is a way to defeat the interlocks in order to do that, but it is even better just to run backing paper only through the camera for that purpose.

Canuck · Aug 4, 2020

Can't really add anymore to the above BUT make sure you understand the steps needed to operate the camera. The first time I picked one up to use, I was playing with it for 20 minutes trying to get muscle memory set to go through the steps needed for a good neg. It worked first time, though the later times, I messed up but it's life .

John Koehrer · Aug 4, 2020

When they first came out we sold our first one to a local pro. Yes, first model and even worse than you
the entire session came out blank. Did anyone say Umm, no interlock?..................

Simplest things first: check the manual. Take your (now) dummy roll and practice loading and go
through the steps of making a photo.

You can test the shutter by watching it operate, either from the front or rear, remove the back set the
aperture, look through it, cock the shutter and release. You should see varying times as you change the speeds

A few of our English members say normal exposure in Britain is Sunny 11 so your exposure should have
been close enough to have an image on the film. Badly exposed maybe but something should be there

mshchem · Aug 4, 2020

First thing would be to look down the lens and make sure the shutter is opening. I had a RB lens that did about 125th when set at 500th. Secondly make sure the mirror lifts up on every shot.
I remember when the RB first showed up when I was a kid. I was impressed that you could use your existing Graflex backs.
I have 2 RZ Pro II cameras but now I want a mint RB Pro SD.

Donald Qualls · Aug 4, 2020

It is very, very easy to shoot twenty exposures on a single frame with an RB67 Pro or Pro-S -- there is no effective double exposure interlock. Cocking the body does nothing at all to advance the film, so it's entirely possible you got all the steps right for the first two frames, then forgot you needed to advance the film separately from cocking the body.

In your case, you probably didn't do this, or the last frame showing on your film would be burnt solid black on the negatives -- not to mention you'd have finished your shoot with the exposure counter on the film back still reading "3". You can't forget to cock the body, else the viewfinder will be black (mirror left up), so it seems most likely you accidentally got the lens into mirror pre-fire mode. This causes the shutter release on the camera body to fire the mirror, just the way you expect it to, but does not fire the shutter at that time. You're then expected to (know you need to) fire the shutter in the lens separately with a cable release to expose the film, before recocking the body and lens, advancing the film, and going forward to the next frame.

There's a little knob on the side of the shutter in each RB67 lens. Different lenses have different markings, but there will always be an orange dot, and (if you pull up and twist) a red dot on the shutter housing, with a red dot on the knob pointing to one or the other. If the dot on the knob points to the orange dot, you're in normal mode; the shutter will fire as part of the sequence when you trip the shutter release on the body (shutter closes and aperture stops down, mirror and its "shutter" flip up, then shutter fires). If the dot on the knob points to the red dot (which may or may not be marked "Mirror Up" as it is on my Sekor C 90mm), the sequence stops after the mirror and it's "shutter" flip, until a cable release in the on-shutter knob is used to actually fire the shutter.

If your lens got switched to "Mirror Up" mode by accident (not hard to do), any exposures you thought you made after that would never have fired the shutter, producing blank film for those frames.

BTW, welcome to the RB67 learning curve. I've had mine for about four months, I've added a 250mm and 2x teleconverter to the 90mm lens it came with, as well as a 220 6x7 back that I use with 35mm film to shoot panoramic ratio and sprocket hole images. I plan to get a 65mm soon, or maybe a 50mm if I can afford it, mainly to get more "Xpan" effect on the panoramic setup.

MattKing · Aug 4, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
It is very, very easy to shoot twenty exposures on a single frame with an RB67 Pro or Pro-S -- there is no effective double exposure interlock.

True for the Pro, but the Pro-S does have all the important interlocks - if you use a Pro-S or Pro-SD back.
If you use a Pro back, than it doesn't matter much what body you have, because the interlocks are basically not there.
The rest of what Donald posts is completely correct!

TiborDublin · Aug 5, 2020

Donald Qualls said:
It is very, very easy to shoot twenty exposures on a single frame with an RB67 Pro or Pro-S -- there is no effective double exposure interlock. Cocking the body does nothing at all to advance the film, so it's entirely possible you got all the steps right for the first two frames, then forgot you needed to advance the film separately from cocking the body.

In your case, you probably didn't do this, or the last frame showing on your film would be burnt solid black on the negatives -- not to mention you'd have finished your shoot with the exposure counter on the film back still reading "3". You can't forget to cock the body, else the viewfinder will be black (mirror left up), so it seems most likely you accidentally got the lens into mirror pre-fire mode. This causes the shutter release on the camera body to fire the mirror, just the way you expect it to, but does not fire the shutter at that time. You're then expected to (know you need to) fire the shutter in the lens separately with a cable release to expose the film, before recocking the body and lens, advancing the film, and going forward to the next frame.

There's a little knob on the side of the shutter in each RB67 lens. Different lenses have different markings, but there will always be an orange dot, and (if you pull up and twist) a red dot on the shutter housing, with a red dot on the knob pointing to one or the other. If the dot on the knob points to the orange dot, you're in normal mode; the shutter will fire as part of the sequence when you trip the shutter release on the body (shutter closes and aperture stops down, mirror and its "shutter" flip up, then shutter fires). If the dot on the knob points to the red dot (which may or may not be marked "Mirror Up" as it is on my Sekor C 90mm), the sequence stops after the mirror and it's "shutter" flip, until a cable release in the on-shutter knob is used to actually fire the shutter.

If your lens got switched to "Mirror Up" mode by accident (not hard to do), any exposures you thought you made after that would never have fired the shutter, producing blank film for those frames.

BTW, welcome to the RB67 learning curve. I've had mine for about four months, I've added a 250mm and 2x teleconverter to the 90mm lens it came with, as well as a 220 6x7 back that I use with 35mm film to shoot panoramic ratio and sprocket hole images. I plan to get a 65mm soon, or maybe a 50mm if I can afford it, mainly to get more "Xpan" effect on the panoramic setup.

I'll have to read this like a dozen times to even understand it
I'm at work (I'm a baker) but as soon as I'm home, I'll take it apart and check the shutter.
The counter was doing it's job every time I shot, it advanced and was fine, I'm really not sure what happened and what I might have done differently with the two successful exposures. With that said, I'm bloody happy with the quality of the ones that came out right, I've never seen that much detail in a single image with my Canon 600D, it's amazing.
Not sure if it makes any difference but I shot the entire roll with a 127mm lens. The second roll was shot on a 140mm macro (at the lab at the moment, hopefully I'll get them back on Friday) and I have a 65mm lens and a macro adaptor as well.

TiborDublin · Aug 5, 2020

Hi guys, I think I have found the problem. So I took the camera apart and it seems the bellow causes the problem as it physically blocks the mirror from flipping sometimes as it collapses unevenly due to wear & tear of course. So, question. Change or repair?
Thanks

Donald Qualls · Aug 5, 2020

MattKing said:
True for the Pro, but the Pro-S does have all the important interlocks - if you use a Pro-S or Pro-SD back.
If you use a Pro back, than it doesn't matter much what body you have, because the interlocks are basically not there.
The rest of what Donald posts is completely correct!

What you typed above doesn't match what I have, so I rechecked -- apparently, aside from the 220 back I use for 35mm, I had completely failed to notice that my Pro-S body came with a pair of Pro 120 film backs (one 6x7 and one 6x4.5). That explains why I only have a double exposure toggle on the 220 back.

Doesn't matter to me -- the dark slide interlock is present and works, which is good because dark slide isn't something I have a long history with (on medium format), but I've got ironclad film advance habits going back literally fifty years.

138S · Aug 5, 2020

TiborDublin said:
Hi guys, I think I have found the problem. So I took the camera apart and it seems the bellow causes the problem as it physically blocks the mirror from flipping sometimes as it collapses unevenly due to wear & tear of course. So, question. Change or repair?
Thanks

Try this to repair the bellows:

You may search ebay this: mamiya rb67 replacement bellows

$75 + shipping...

Or you may buy an additional body for around $99 , I'd do that...

TiborDublin · Aug 5, 2020

138S said:
Try this to repair the bellows:

View attachment 251830

You may search ebay this: mamiya rb67 replacement bellows

$75 + shipping...

Or you may buy an additional body for around $99 , I'd do that...

View attachment 251831

Thanks.

There's no light leak on it, it just doesn't fold back onto itself where it should so it's blocking the mirror from moving freely.

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