determining reciprocity failure -same film, different formats

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kaiyen

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Hi all,
I want to figure out the reciprocity behavior for Foma 200, which is what I use in 5x7. The numbers on the Foma page are ridiculous. Like 6 stops when you meter to 1s. Something crazy like that. Now, I can't go shooting sheets like crazy figuring it out, so I"d likely use 120 or even 35mm.

I know that the emulsion is the same, but I also know that there can be subtle difference between the different formats. For my purposes, do you think I can get away with using 120 or 35mm to test reciprocity?

allan
 

Roger Hicks

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I hesitate to argue with Ole but I half-recall that Foma 200 is one of the few films that DOES (or maybe only did) have different emulsions in different formats. Unfortunately I can't find my Foma catalogue to confirm this. IF it does, I'm reasonably sure that 35mm is one type, and RF/LF the other.

Cheers,

R.
 

Ole

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You are right, Roger.
It's often "safer" to assume that 35mm is different from 120 and sheet.

However: In this particular case, 35mm is similar to 120, which is different from sheet film: http://www.foma.cz/Upload/foma/prilohy/F_pan_200_en.pdf shows different spectral sensitivity, although it doesn't mention any difference in reciprocity failure.
 

Roger Hicks

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Dear Ole,

Well, half-right, anyway. But then, as I said, I half-remembered!

Given their copious (if sometimes opaque) data, it does seem likely they would have noted any variations in reciprocity failure with the two different red dyes. Looks like lousy hole-trapping, with those numbers.

Cheers,

R.
 
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kaiyen

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Ole,
That thread seems to just talk about reciprocity failure in general. Perhaps the attachment to the first post says something useful about fomapan 200 in particular, but my membership hasn't been approved yet so I can't read it. Is Europan 200 the same as fomapan 200?

I'll wait until I can see the chart, I guess. But it seems like the two of you are saying that, at least with fomapan 200, the 35mm and 120 are the same, but both are different than sheet film.

Sigh.
allan
 

Ryuji

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Roger Hicks said:
Looks like lousy hole-trapping, with those numbers.

Creation of hole traps is one effective way to deal with reciprocity failure but it doesn't have to be that. In the case of Foma emulsions, they could do more basic improvements first. Their films use coarser grains that are suboptimally sensitized, which can result in poor LIRF. Look at the MTF. At some 27lp/mm or so the MTF drops to 0.5. Tri-X crosses the same 50% MTF line at 55lp/mm, and T-MAX P3200 at 90lp/mm. This is not just lousy hole trapping.
 

Ole

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kaiyen said:
Ole,
That thread seems to just talk about reciprocity failure in general. Perhaps the attachment to the first post says something useful about fomapan 200 in particular, but my membership hasn't been approved yet so I can't read it. Is Europan 200 the same as fomapan 200?

I'll wait until I can see the chart, I guess. But it seems like the two of you are saying that, at least with fomapan 200, the 35mm and 120 are the same, but both are different than sheet film.

Sigh.
allan

The chart says essentially the same thing as the data on www.foma.cz. I would assume that Europan 200 is the same as the Fomapan 200, especially since the "Europan 200" I bought from Freddy came in Fomapan boxes. :smile:

The sensitivity data on the foma site have different curves for 35mm/120 and sheet film. So we conclude from that that the sheet films are different from the others, but can't really conclude that the reciprocity failure correction would be different too. Only that it might be.
 

Roger Hicks

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Ryuji said:
Creation of hole traps is one effective way to deal with reciprocity failure but it doesn't have to be that. In the case of Foma emulsions, they could do more basic improvements first. Their films use coarser grains that are suboptimally sensitized, which can result in poor LIRF. Look at the MTF. At some 27lp/mm or so the MTF drops to 0.5. Tri-X crosses the same 50% MTF line at 55lp/mm, and T-MAX P3200 at 90lp/mm. This is not just lousy hole trapping.

Thanks. I'd assumed that such things were all but unheard of nowadays. One of the many pleasures of APUG (along with the general civility) is hearing from people who REALLY know what they are talking about.

Cheers,

Roger
 

Roger Hicks

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When an electron (negative charge) is knocked out by a photon, it leaves a 'positive hole'. If the 'positive hole' is refilled by another electron (or the same one, insofar as that means anything), the development site weakens or disappears. 'Trapping' the 'positive hole' increases sensitivity and decreases reciprocity failure.

No doubt Ryuji can explain it better and more convincingly. I am at the edge of my knowledge here; it is well within his expertise.

Cheers,

Roger
 
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kaiyen

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So...basically...the riduclous reciprocity failure recommendations from Foma are correct.

Wow. 10s>90s. That's already, what, almost a 4+ stop increase (depending on how you count stops). Wow.

Need to get some other film, I guess. I work in low light often enough that that kind of failure is not acceptable.

allan
 

Ryuji

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Positive hole, recombination and reciprocity failure

This is something from material science of semiconductor materials, and not a common term in photography (unless you study emulsion chemistry). I'll try to make gross simplification.

Silver halide crystals are like silicone crystals in a sense that they are indirect gap semiconductors. Such materials have covalent bonds between molecules and there are some electrons that are tightly shared between adjacent molecules. Those electrons are usually locked in and they stay there. You can think of it as a highway in heavy traffic jam, where cars aren't flowing. (Cars are electrons that are locked in.)

When one photon is absorbed by the crystal, this excites the chemical bonds between molecules, and knock one electron out. This makes a void of electron in the covalent bond from which the electron was ejected. This is hole. You can think of one car is given extra energy from the photon to jump up and escape from the traffic.

In order to make a developable latent image center, one crystal must absorb several photons, and collect several electrons to one site (sensitivity center) where electrons reduce a few silver halide molecules metallic silver in a tiny cluster (speck). This is where the developer can act on to develop exposed crystals.

Given the constant crystal size and shape, in order to increase the sensitivity of the crystal and also reduce reciprocity failure, it is essential to have a mechanism to concentrate generated electrons to one place (ther fewer the better!) so that the electrons are most efficiently and most quickly used to make a developable latent image center. (One LI center is sufficient to develop the entire grain.) It is best to make latent image center very quickly because intermediate forms (latent subimages) are unstable and they may break if electrons don't gather at the location fast enough. A LOT of progress in this area was made by Fuji, Kodak and AGFA researchers from mid 1980s and on. Most exciting findings are from Kodak people in 1980s and Fuji people in 1990s. You can think of this as having fewer recycle bin (for photoelectrons) would fill them up faster than having more recycle bins. Full recycle bins are the latent image centers.

One problem with holes is that, they attract electrons and electrons want to jump back in to fill the void. This is called recombination. Once this happens, the electron has lost its power to make latent image center. (Cars get in to any space in traffic jams.)

Thus, formation of a latent image center is at a competition with recombination. So another factor in increasing sensitivity is to minimize recombination by somehow stabilizing the void, or filling the void of electrons with electrons that come from elsewhere other than those generated by light.

There are some compounds that take up the hole and release second electron. This can double the number of useful electrons to make latent image center, and it can increase the photographic speed of the same crystal. Pioneer of this research was AGFA people and French scientists, but Kodak is also active in this approach using more practical materials.

Anyway, Foma is not very close to most of the above stuff in terms of technology.


Roger Hicks said:
When an electron (negative charge) is knocked out by a photon, it leaves a 'positive hole'. If the 'positive hole' is refilled by another electron (or the same one, insofar as that means anything), the development site weakens or disappears. 'Trapping' the 'positive hole' increases sensitivity and decreases reciprocity failure.
 

colrehogan

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kaiyen said:
So...basically...the riduclous reciprocity failure recommendations from Foma are correct.

Wow. 10s>90s. That's already, what, almost a 4+ stop increase (depending on how you count stops). Wow.

Need to get some other film, I guess. I work in low light often enough that that kind of failure is not acceptable.

allan
May I suggest Fuji Acros 100? It's a great film for night shooting.
 

eddie gunks

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kaiyen said:
Hi all,
I want to figure out the reciprocity behavior for Foma 200, which is what I use in 5x7. The numbers on the Foma page are ridiculous. Like 6 stops when you meter to 1s. Something crazy like that. Now, I can't go shooting sheets like crazy figuring it out, so I"d likely use 120 or even 35mm.


allan
hello, i use http://www.pinhole.cz/en/pinholedesigner/ to determine my foma 100 reciprocity. it works perfect. foma has terrible reciprocity numbers, but it is a great film. as i say i use it mostly in 4x5 pinholes so i am always shooting 47sec and looonnnggggerrrrrr mostly in the 5 min and 9 min range. as a result i am begining to shoot some t max 100. for t max i am in the 9 sec to 3 min range. a heck of a difference. now if i was using a lens foma would be fine for me.....but you can see i am working with ridiculous times when compared to most lens shots. i hope this helps.

eddie
 
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