Desperate Newbie: ID-11 dilution

Mirko Lazzarin · Jan 28, 2009

Hello everyone,
I am about to start developing my firsts films.
I have mixed the ID-11 and stored in 2 x 2 litres and 1 x 1 litre bottle.
I have few questions now:
1- as I am planning to use the ID-11 in stock dilution 1:0, can the stock be re-used? Or is it better to use only fresh solution?
2 - the tank I bought shows that I need for a 120mm film a total 590cc of solution?? It looks to me that this is a huge amount. Is this correct??
3 - fixer and stop bath: is it advisable to store the diluted solutions or is it better to prepare them each time??
I will probably have more questions....and I am pretty lost at the moment!!
:confused::confused:
I hope my English helped me
Cheers
Mirko

PhotoJim · Jan 28, 2009

1. You can re-use it, although development times will gradually increase. Ilford has a technical publication on ID-11 on its website that you can read for more information. I tend to use ID-11 1:1 and discard it after use, for greater consistency and slightly better sharpness, at the expense of slightly more visible grain.

2. That sounds about right. My tank takes 500 mL. 590 is not that much more.

3. You can store them diluted. Keep a record of how much film you put through your fixer so that you can discard it at appropriate intervals.

Paul Howell · Jan 28, 2009

Mirko Lazzarin said:
Hello everyone,
1- as I am planning to use the ID-11 in stock dilution 1:0, can the stock be re-used? Or is it better to use only fresh solution?

Stock can be reused, the data sheet will provide infomation concering icreased development times based on the number of rolls you process. ID 11 which is similiar to Kodak D 76 can also be replenished with a differnt ID 11 replensiher developer. If you mixed a lot of ID 11 with can also just dump it. If you dilute ID 11 1:1 or 1:2 you need to toss it out.

repl2 - the tank I bought shows that I need for a 120mm film a total 590cc of solution?? It looks to me that this is a huge amount. Is this correct??

Looks like about what my Patterson tanks needs for 120.

3 - fixer and stop bath: is it advisable to store the diluted solutions or is it better to prepare them each time??

You can reuse both diluted fix and stop bath, for fixer use fixer tester to see when you need to replaced it with fresh fix. I use indicator stop which changes color when it needs to dumped.

edtbjon · Jan 28, 2009

As far as my memory serves me, if you use the stock solution straight (1:0) you can use it for up to 10 films, but you have to increase the time by some 5-10 % after having processed 5 films. If you plan to develop more than say 25 films within the next 6 months, this is the way to go.
Else you can dilute the stock solution by 1:1 or even 1:3. But then this developer becomes one-shot and have to be poured out after developing one film.
2) It is a little bit much, but my Paterson tanks needs 500ml so thac could be correct.
3) It is OK to store the solutions and reuse them. Try to find a scrap piece of undeveloped film which you dip and hold in the fixer to see how long it takes to clear. (Example: 40 seconds) Then you double that time (to 80 seconds) for your fixing time. Test with at least every two films you fix. When the clearing time is more than 80 seconds, the fixer is no longer good. (Stop bath solution is very cheap, so you can change that quite often.)

//Björn

trexx · Jan 28, 2009

1) yes it can be reused, but do consider using 1:1 or 1:2 as a one shot developer.
2) 590 is right, as you gain skill you could also tale two 120 and place on one reel. , maybe another reason to do one shot
3) Yes make a working batch and keep track of rolls and how long since mixing.

TR

JBrunner · Jan 28, 2009

Just a note on the developer volume- it must immerse the film, as in if the tank is sitting there the developer solution must cover all the film and a little extra. Too little is a disaster, to much is no big deal.

The easiest way to determine exactly the volume you need is to put the reels in the tank and fill it with water until they are covered plus some extra, say 1 or 2cm extra. Then pour the water in to a graduate and measure it. If you are going to round the number for easier dilution calculations or whatever, round up.

If you are a visual learner, the free developing videos linked in my sig might help.

jim appleyard · Jan 28, 2009

Yes, you can re-use ID-11 stock, but you're playing with fire. The stock solution will gradually decrease in activity and you'll have to add time for each roll used; 5% for each roll IIRC.

IMO, you're much better off using it 1+1. That is 1 part ID-11, one part water. This way you can add warm or cold water to the ID_11 to get to the dsired dev temp., and you toss it after use and mix fresh 1+1 for each use. That way you know it's fresh and won't have to keep track of how many rolls you've run thru it. Plus, I feel 1+1 gives a better image.

MikeSeb · Jan 28, 2009

Let me chime in also! Use the developer once and discard, whether or not you dilute it. Developer's too cheap to pinch pennies and risk your images.

You don't need stop bath; a water rinse for a minute or two will do the job fine.

Agree you should test your fixer periodically; but again, use once and discard is safer and the stuff is dirt cheap.

Mirko Lazzarin · Jan 28, 2009

Well....a huge thanks to everyone for the responses...Here are my thoughts:

1 - I will definitely try dilution 1:1, I will give dilution 1:0 a try to compare result though. However, in case I want to stick to the stock dilution (and in my case having it stored in 2 litres bottles), what will I do after the use in the tank, can I pour it back with the remaining solution (as I am gonna use 590cc only)????

2 - so be 590cc ;-))

3 - one more question about the storage: do I need to fill the bottle up to the bottom(like for the developer)??

I start thinking I a little dumb....Sorry for all these questions!!
Thanks a lot everyone!!

Paul Howell · Jan 28, 2009

Mirko Lazzarin said:
Well....a huge thanks to everyone for the responses...Here are my thoughts:

1 - I will definitely try dilution 1:1, I will give dilution 1:0 a try to compare result though. However, in case I want to stick to the stock dilution (and in my case having it stored in 2 litres bottles), what will I do after the use in the tank, can I pour it back with the remaining solution (as I am gonna use 590cc only)????

2 - so be 590cc ;-))

3 - one more question about the storage: do I need to fill the bottle up to the bottom(like for the developer)??

I start thinking I a little dumb....Sorry for all these questions!!
Thanks a lot everyone!!

If you are going to dilute and dump you may want to consider HC 110 or the Ilford equilvant, a lot more convieant and HC 110 last a long time. Results will similiar to ID 11 or D 76.

edtbjon · Jan 28, 2009

Mirko Lazzarin said:
...
1 - I will definitely try dilution 1:1, I will give dilution 1:0 a try to compare result though. However, in case I want to stick to the stock dilution (and in my case having it stored in 2 litres bottles), what will I do after the use in the tank, can I pour it back with the remaining solution (as I am gonna use 590cc only)????
...
3 - one more question about the storage: do I need to fill the bottle up to the bottom(like for the developer)??

I start thinking I a little dumb....Sorry for all these questions!!
Thanks a lot everyone!!

1) If you are using it straight for reuse, from for example the 2 litre bottle, pour it back into the 2 litre bottle. Then, after 4 films, extend the development time by for example 5%, after 8 films 5% again and so on.
But you will get more consistent results from developing with 1:1 (or 1:3, which is possible also). No need to worry about how much "power" is left in the developer.

3) For the developer it is important not to have any air in the bottle. If you use a plastic bottle, just squeeze it so that any air gets out. For the stopbath and the fixer, this is not important.

Another tip which noone have mentioned is to use a prewash of plain water for 3-5 minutes. This will wash out some (normally blue) dyes which are on the back of the film. It will also help in making the developing start more gently and to be more even. Last, if you plan to reuse the developer, a prewash is good, as you will loose some developer every time if you start with developing dry film.

We all had these questions when we started. No problems with helping you out.

//Björn

jim appleyard · Jan 28, 2009

Yes, another vote for HC-110 ir the Ilford model, Ilfotec HC. Use a syringe from the druggist to measure small amounts and dilute to the amount specified. Process abd dump. These devs keep for decades in their original state. No powders and aging to think about.

Mirko Lazzarin · Jan 28, 2009

jim appleyard said:
Yes, another vote for HC-110 ir the Ilford model, Ilfotec HC. Use a syringe from the druggist to measure small amounts and dilute to the amount specified. Process abd dump. These devs keep for decades in their original state. No powders and aging to think about.

Yes, I really started thinking at HC developers after struggling among powders, jugs and so on! I have been using it at the darkroom class that I attended few months ago. I was a bit worry about the price of HC-110, bujt I have not realized how long they can keep for.
Thanks a lot

Mirko Lazzarin · Jan 28, 2009

Another tip which noone have mentioned is to use a prewash of plain water for 3-5 minutes. This will wash out some (normally blue) dyes which are on the back of the film. It will also help in making the developing start more gently and to be more even. Last, if you plan to reuse the developer, a prewash is good, as you will loose some developer every time if you start with developing dry film.

We all had these questions when we started. No problems with helping you out.

//Björn[/QUOTE]

Great tip Bjorn, thanks!

jim appleyard · Jan 28, 2009

Just make sure you add 1 minute to your dev times when using a pre-soak.

wogster · Jan 28, 2009

Mirko Lazzarin said:
Hello everyone,
I am about to start developing my firsts films.
I have mixed the ID-11 and stored in 2 x 2 litres and 1 x 1 litre bottle.
I have few questions now:
1- as I am planning to use the ID-11 in stock dilution 1:0, can the stock be re-used? Or is it better to use only fresh solution?
2 - the tank I bought shows that I need for a 120mm film a total 590cc of solution?? It looks to me that this is a huge amount. Is this correct??
3 - fixer and stop bath: is it advisable to store the diluted solutions or is it better to prepare them each time??
I will probably have more questions....and I am pretty lost at the moment!!
:confused::confused:
I hope my English helped me
Cheers
Mirko

1) If you use it 1:0 you can reuse it, I find it works best for me to use 1+3 and toss it each time, for consistency, if you are developing a lot of film, then sometimes you can use a replenishment system, For more details check the fact sheet, download a copy and print it.

2) My tank uses 300ml for 35mm so 590ml for 120 may be correct.

3) Fixer can be reused, check the capacity though, or clip test. To do a clip test, take some scrap film, put a drop of fixer on it, wait 30 seconds, then put the film in a small dish of fixer, when you can't see where you put the drop, the film is clear, double this is your fixing time. If the clear time it's 1 minute for fresh fixer, you want to toss it, when it gets to 2 minutes.

As for stop, for film most people just use water, with the developing time of film, stopping development immediately isn't as critical as with paper, where developing times are much shorter.

Mirko Lazzarin · Jan 29, 2009

jim appleyard said:
Just make sure you add 1 minute to your dev times when using a pre-soak.

Will do, thanks..Just one more question about pre-soak: should the water be at 20 degrees??

At last, I stilll have one doubt about fixer and stop baths: do they need an (or more than one) agitation?

So far I have no more questions, but I seriously think that you will hear from me Very Very soon!!

Thanks everyone!

Mick Fagan · Jan 29, 2009

Mirko, agitation is usually a sort of personal thing, whatever regime you decide upon, keep doing it.

For film developer, I pour in the developer, close the cap, bang the tank on the bench to dislodge air bubbles from the film, then I invert the tank back and forth for the next 30 seconds.

I repeat the inversion technique of four inversions every minute, until the end of developing.

For stop bath, I use a 2% acetic acid solution, I pour it in, cap the tank, then invert for the next 45 seconds or so, then I pour it out. You can use a plain water rinse, as well if you desire.

With fixer, I pour it in, cap it, then invert twice every thirty seconds. Generally speaking you can agitate fixer as much as you like, the film will clear during that time and it is then "fixed". Within reason, over fixing will do no harm.

Washing is done by myself using a like method to developing/fixing, except I do constant agitation using multiple changes of water. I use a method very close to the Ilford method on their website.

Although there is reasonable tolerances with modern films, the closer you can stay to a given temperature throughout with all baths and washes, the better.

In cooler weather like you are currently having, 20ºC for all baths is perhaps a good thing to aim for. In hotter weather like we are currently having, I struggle to maintain 24ºC as the water is too hot.

You should be able to develop any modern film at any temperature between 20ºC and 24ºC with perfect results. You just need to adjust the developer time according to the temperature. Once again look at the Ilford site.

I think your developing may suffer slightly if you drop your developing temperature much below 19ºC. That said I have developed down to about 17ºC but I was desperate and the quality wasn't a concern.

Regarding the mixed developer you have, as it starts to drop in the bottles, add glass marbles to bring the developer level back to the top. This eliminates air, thereby reducing oxidisation of the developer greatly.

I have a couple of buckets of glass marbles. When they were young, my nephews and nieces thought they were a treasure trove!

Mick.

Martin Aislabie · Jan 29, 2009

Don't pre-soak the films if you are using ID11

ID11 has a wetting agent in it & so doesn't need it

Read the Ilford Web Sheet - it too doesn't recommend pre-soak - http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/20062161159472874.pdf

Agitation for Stop & Fix - minimum of 4 times every 30sec

Have fun

Martin

jim appleyard · Jan 29, 2009

Mirko Lazzarin said:
Will do, thanks..Just one more question about pre-soak: should the water be at 20 degrees??

At last, I stilll have one doubt about fixer and stop baths: do they need an (or more than one) agitation?

So far I have no more questions, but I seriously think that you will hear from me Very Very soon!!

Thanks everyone!

Yes, your pre-soak should be the same temp as the dev. Plus, your stop and fix should be 20C as well.

edtbjon · Jan 30, 2009

Martin - I cannot find the information which you are refering to in that document. At least I cannot find anything which says that you should not pre-soak. Also, that document seems to be aimed at deep tank processing, not small tank processing. B.t.w. the wetting agent you're indicating, is it a similar wetting agent as e.g. Kodaks "last forever wetting agent", or is it the normal D-76 clone receipe which chemicals makes the water have less surface tension? (I'm just asking as many have problems when using wetting agents in their plastic tanks and reels. The usual wetting agent leaves a sticky surface, which makes the reels etc. harder to load and it can also cause strange effects on the negatives. Because of this wetting agents are a no-no in Jobo tanks. ... Speaking of Jobo, where a pre-soak is recommended with all films and developers except Xtol.)

My own tests as well as other tests gives that some 20-30 seconds extra developing time is sufficient compensation for the pre-soak. (Not a full minute.)

//Björn

kevs · Jan 30, 2009

Mirko,

Re: pre-soak. The purpose is to swell the film's gelatin and allow the developer quicker access to the emulsion, and to warm the tank and film to the correct temperature. It also helps prevent air bubbles sticking to the film. I find it helps to add a couple of drops (no more!) of wetting agent to this. Pre-soak for a couple of minutes while you prepare the developer, and agitate the tank a few times. This way, you don't need to bang the tank on a table when you develop, just agitate correctly.

Re: developer dilution. I use ID-11 at 1:3; the dev times are longer but there's more room for time and temperature errors. It's more economic to dilute and throw, rather than to store used dev over a long period.

Re: tank capacity. 590cc is a minimum. If you use 600cc of chemicals with 120 film, you won't have a problem and it's easier to calculate dilutions.

Finally, you'll find your own routines and methods of developing film as you go. If your first film doesn't give the results you want, persevere with it - you'll get there. Enjoy yourself.

Vincent Brady · Jan 30, 2009

RE: PRE- SOAK
I have always pre-soaked my film with the exception of Ilford Delta 400. Why ? Because Ilford tells you not to pre-soak this film.

Mick Fagan · Jan 30, 2009

Tex, I had a quick squiz of my Delta PDF from the Ilford Photo website.

On page 3 it states:- "For manual processing in spiral tanks and deep tanks, the development times are based on intermittent agitation. Where continuous agitation is used for manual processing (as in a dish/tray or with some types of developing tank), reduce these times by 15%

For use in rotary processors without a pre-rinse, reduce the spiral tank development times by up to 15%. A pre-rinse is not recommended as it can lead to uneven processing."

They don't really say you shouldn't do it, it is just a recommendation for those using a particular type of processing situation. It is little pieces of information like that where we miss or misunderstand information and remember it that way. I do it all of the time.

I have yet to see any reasonably sized commercial processing situation, where film is pre-rinsed, it just doesn't happen.

I myself haven't pre-rinsed any film B&W, C41, E6 and Lithographic amongst others, for decades. From a technical point of view, my negatives are quite good, content and artistic ability is another matter:rolleyes:

There is nothing inherently wrong with a pre-rinse, but there is nothing wrong by not doing one. Whatever works in your darkroom, my darkroom and anyone else's darkroom is great. Whatever works for anyone in their darkroom, keep doing it.

Mick.

Martin Aislabie · Feb 5, 2009

edtbjon said:
Martin - I cannot find the information which you are refering to in that document. At least I cannot find anything which says that you should not pre-soak. Also, that document seems to be aimed at deep tank processing, not small tank processing. B.t.w. the wetting agent you're indicating, is it a similar wetting agent as e.g. Kodaks "last forever wetting agent", or is it the normal D-76 clone receipe which chemicals makes the water have less surface tension? (I'm just asking as many have problems when using wetting agents in their plastic tanks and reels. The usual wetting agent leaves a sticky surface, which makes the reels etc. harder to load and it can also cause strange effects on the negatives. Because of this wetting agents are a no-no in Jobo tanks. ... Speaking of Jobo, where a pre-soak is recommended with all films and developers except Xtol.)

My own tests as well as other tests gives that some 20-30 seconds extra developing time is sufficient compensation for the pre-soak. (Not a full minute.)

//Björn

Bjorn, you are right - its not in the ID11 Fact Sheet - but it is on all the Ilford Film Fact Sheets that I have looked at:-

For use in rotary processors without a pre-rinse, reduce the spiral tank development times by up to 15%. A pre-rinse is not recommended as it can lead to uneven processing (Ilford FP4 Fact Sheet - http://www.ilfordphoto.com/Webfiles/2006216115141521.pdf - Page3)

However, if you have a process that works for you - then great - stick to it and adjust only as you see fit to suit your photography

The wetting agent I refer to in ID11 is a surface tension breaker (as found in most of the main stream developers) and not at all like Photo-Flo or similar (which as you rightly point out can be a major problem over time in plastic tanks & reels)

Martin

Desperate Newbie: ID-11 dilution

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