Depressed over 4x5

So I suck at developing 4x5.

Today I tray processed 4 sheets, and sudo-tank processed 4 sheets.
The tray process went horrible, and the tank came out ok. I took the top off the tank, made sure there was enough chemicals to fill the tank (feels like 15 liters), and agitated the fire out of it.

They came out ok.

I don't know why I can't get consistent results. I guess I'm just not being consistent in my developing.

Can I tray develop under safelight? I would like to see what's happening to my sheets... Any suggestions would be awesome!

Get a proper dev tank, I've used a Jobo (200 Series) since 1976, but there's newer ? possibly better ? I've also used deep tanks and it's just like 35mm 120 etc dead easy. All controls are harder in trays.

Ian

JohnRichard said:

...Can I tray develop under safelight? I would like to see what's happening to my sheets... Any suggestions would be awesome!

Click to expand...

You can, with a very dark green filter. It's called 'development by inspection', but it is a frustrating dim process, and I think, you are trying to use it just because your current technique is not working for you. However, there is no reason for that. Let's find out why your current process is so inconsistent. That will fix the issue.

I got really frustrated trying to learn open tray processing until I discovered a 'slosher tray' (do a search) and got the most evenly developed scratch free negs ever !

I develop 2 sheets at a time in a 8x10 tray. No problems; what exactly is going wrong? I think I'll make a slosher, though.

I don't know about the dark green safelight. Tried it once. The light was so dim that you couldn't really see anything. The caveat is to use the lamp only after development is at least half way through, and it is recommended practice to use a desensitizer like pinacryptol green. I kept the safelight within spec, used it only as recommended, but did not use the desensitizer. The film was horribly fogged to the point of being useless.

Slosher is good, rotary is eeeeeasy and has been good for my negs. Tanks and motors for rotary are pretty cheap (I paid three bucks for two tanks last year and got a motor for free) and the quantity of liquid required is very small when compared to other methods. I use 400 ml of D76 1/1 to do four 4x5 negs at one time. Uni-color and Beseler tanks, in my case, Uniroller Drum Agitator.

The reason a green safelight is used is that this is the light your eyes are most sensitive to. You only use it for a few seconds and then turn it off.
It is not safe for the film to keep the lights on all the time, as most b&w films are panchromatic.

I found it helpful to develop by inspection. But my negs were not much better than after I had figured out daylight tank development, (and subsequently rotary processing), so I eventually dropped it.

It took me a while to get evenly developed sheet films, but my main problem with it was dust, which is why I dropped sheet film almost all together.

Good luck!

I've tray developed for years. It takes practice. I still scratch or otherwise screw up an occasional sheet, but I usually shoot two identical sheets of every scene. Use plenty of developer and be careful. I usually use 1.5 liters of developer for 6 sheets of film so that there's plenty of juice to go around without touching the sheets together too much. I use an 8x10 tray for 4x5 sheet film, one of the Paterson trays with deep finger grooves so I can get under the bottom sheets.

Peter Gomena

If you said what a psuedo tank was and said exactly what defect you got, the best advice would be offered.
You really have not given a clue.

Submersion needs to be fast and the wet/dry edge proceed across the film without retreating. Agitation needs to be vigorous and random. If not vigorous enough, spent developer is not replaced with fresh. If not random, the spent developer will be replaced only in some areas and not in other setting up a non uniform development. You do not need to do a cocktail shaker agitatiion, just move the film.

Here's what I did when I used trays to process 4x5 film. (I've been using a Jobo CPP-2 and expert drums for quite a while.) Use 8x10 trays for 4x5 film in the following order: water, developer, stop, fix and hypo clear. Put about 1-1.5 L of liquid in each tray. Get all the solutions as close to your developing temp as possible. Hass intellifaucets are neat . Place a negative one at a time emulsion down in the water tray. Hold the negative by the edges with your left hand if you're right-handed. With your right hand, take one of the negatives by the edges. Lower your hand until your little finger touches the water, and then drop the negative emulsion side down into the tray, keeping the negative as parallel to the water as possible. You'll hear a little plop as the negative hits the water. Push the negative to near the bottom of the tray using your little finger. Don't get your other fingers wet. Quickly but carefully do the same for each negative. (I usually did 6 to 8 negatives, but use less to start.) Once they're all in, shuffle the negatives by using your left hand to keep them in the lower left corner of the tray. Take your right hand and slide the bottom negative away from you as far as you can in the try, pulling the negative up and out of the developer at the end. Take that negative and drop it onto the lower left corner of the tray as before, making sure that the other negatives have been pushed bellow the surface of the water with your left hand. Repeat. Shuffle the negative for 2 minutes and then pick them up and place them in the developer tray. Start your timer. A foot switch really helps. Immediately start shuffling as before. This time, though, go through the whole stack once and then shuffle one more negative. Now rotate the whole stack 90 degrees clockwise. keep doing this for the entire developing time. So if you have 5 sheets of film, shuffle 6 negatives and then rotate. This will make sure that the bottom negative isn't always the same one, which could cause it to have more agitation than the others. 15 seconds before the end of the time. Pick up the whole stack and drain a bit. Place the stack in the stop bath when the time is up. Shuffle. ....

The emulsions should always be down. That way, if you make a mistake and drop a negative such that it's corner digs into one that's in the water, you'll only be hitting the base side of the film with the corner. It also means that when you pull out the bottom negative, you won't scrap the emulsion against the edge or corners of the stack.

Arrange your developer temp and dilution such that your development time is about 10 minutes. That way small differences in development time, such as caused by each sheet getting introduced to the developer at a slightly different time, will make very minor changes.

Make sure your trays do not have sharp bits on them. Sometimes they have little nubs left over from the casting process. If so, use a razor blade or sand paper to smooth them out.

Practice at least once with 4 sheets of film with the lights on. That'll really help you get a feel on how to do it correctly.

John, you can develop ortho film by inspection with an ordinary red safelight. The light can stay on the whole time, no problem. I can give you some ortho film to try if you wish.

But tray dev'ing shouldn't be giving you any hassles, it is (to me) the easiest way to develop. If you want, let me know when you're down in C'ville and I or Richard can work with you and try to figure out where the problems lie. You could also try the combiplans down here.

I always get evenly developed, scratch free negs from tray developing.

For the tray, I used 1040ml + 120ml Ilfosol 3. This was enough liquid to completely submerge the negs. I moved the negs and the water around a good bit, making sure to get some flow beneath the surface. The negs came out very dark, like there was no shadows. One of the pictures is of the sky, and a building, and it is very dark. I did 4 at one time. I thought I may not have developed enough, and so checked the time table, and temperature. Everything was right. Even used a better timer than the one I had been using.

For the tank, I did 4 at one time, and I had the best results of that tank so far. I did not use the top, because I cant' invert it anyway. So I just put the negs in, filled it with chems, and aggressively agitated it best I could, without spilling all my stuff.

I started out developing film in trays. It took a few tries to get good results. To me the key was having enough developer in tray. I ended up using 1 and 1/2" to 2" of developer in the tray. Later, I moved on to the Slosher. It was easier and I had fewer scratches and finger prints than with regular tray development. I now use a Jobo with expert drums. It is by far the easiest and most consistent for me. Plus, once you load the film, the rest of the process is carried out with the lights on. If you don't want to spring for a Jobo processor, try the Slosher or you could get a Jobo tube and the manual roller base.

Then of course there is this little gizmo that you can make yourself for only a few bucks. Looks like it might be very effective.

j
sorry about your troubles ..

instead of putting the film in trays
and rocking the trays, put the film in the trays one at a time
and move the bottom to the top over and over and over again until time is up.
you can use cheap-o 5x7" tupperware-esque trays they are perfect for 4x5 film.

you can practice with some already processed film, with the lights on
in a tray of water, just so you can see what you need to do.

good luck!
john

jnanian said:

j
sorry about your troubles ..

instead of putting the film in trays
and rocking the trays, put the film in the trays one at a time
and move the bottom to the top over and over and over again until time is up.
you can use cheap-o 5x7" tupperware-esque trays they are perfect for 4x5 film.

you can practice with some already processed film, with the lights on
in a tray of water, just so you can see what you need to do.

good luck!
john

Click to expand...

Wont that scratch the film? This sounds like a good idea.

When I started out, I got a Yankee Tank. It's evil. That's just all there is to it. Don't even try it. It takes lots of chemistry and there's no way to properly agitate it.

A few weeks into my frustration, I watched a video on youtube about BTZS tubes. They weren't that expensive and they seemed to work OK. I'm still kind of a cheapskate so I got some 2" ABS sewer pipe. I cut 5" sections and glued a cap on one end of each. Then I cut 1" sections and glued a cap on one end and a coupler on the other. That forms a cap that can hold about 3oz of chemistry. I found that I really only need two. I followed the instructions for the BTZS tubes and I've never had a problem.

I hope that helps.

I like BTZS tube processing for 4x5 . Very accurate temp control, very accurate timing for each sheet individually for zone system/BTZS work , very economical and very evenly developed scratch free negatives. Also its daylight processing. Plus I think it's fun log rolling the tubes.

Miles

I am going to jump in here and suggest the HP Combi Plan tanks. I have been using one for almost 20 years now. But this is my preference... YMMV.

I do tray develop my 5x7 though using the method Mr Nanian mentions.

Good luck and don't give up. When you decide on a method that best suits you and start to get goods results, you are going to love printing 4x5 negs!!

gene

JohnRichard said:

Wont that scratch the film? This sounds like a good idea.

Click to expand...

If you do shuffle, here's a tip: you must wet the negatives well before you stack them. I do that in a separate tray. The negs go into the water, get dunked and then strongly agitated, and then after they are all wet, then I transfer them not the developing tray. If you don't prewet them then any dry spots will serve as sticking sites and you can wind up with a big mess.

Rather than stacking and shuffling, what I often do is put the negs side by side in a larger tray so that each neg its own fresh developer above. E.g. place four 4x5s in an 8x10 tray. After prewetting the negs go in to the developer and are agitated strongly for 10 sec, including a extra dunk in and out of the solution. Thereafter I agitate the tray once per minute for ~5 sec.

Everyone has his own religion.

P.S. sorry, when I suggested you come over to C'ville in my earlier post, I had you confused with another John Anyway I'll be in Lexington for the holidays and would be happy to give some pointers then if its of any use.

I use open trays, 5x7 size for 4x5 film. The trays are made by Paterson and are a little oversize. They also have groves in the bottom so you can get a gloved finger under the film to pull the bottom sheet out.

But, the most important thing to do with any method chosen is to practice, practice, practice, and practice some more, until you are completely comfortable with it.

Now that you have some scrap film, practice with the lights on, as said above.

JohnRichard said:

...The negs came out very dark, like there was no shadows....

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Doesn't sound like a development problem. It's pretty difficult to get 'too dark' negatives by development only. Sounds like somehow the sheets were overexposed, either major in-camera, or exposed (even briefly) to light and fogged somewhere between the box and the holder or the holder and the tray.

Tray processing is pretty foolproof (just like paper, eh?) and the likelier problem is doing too many with one batch, exhausting your developer, and ending up with under-developed (thin) negatives. Gentle rocking is all that is required.

Homemade BTZS with fiberglass screen inserts work great for me.

Two words: BTZS Tubes

Two Youtube video links:

1st video
2nd video