Denver area car show, photo op... 8/27/2011

toro_mike · Aug 24, 2011

I am organizing a classic car get-together this weekend at the free Great Indoors Store meet-up on Saturday from 8am to around 11am. These boys need some real classics to look at as the show is overwhelmingly modern (BMW's, Mercedes, Ferraris, etc. - the tuner crowd). If you have a car, any car you can show - condition does not matter, bring it, or just show up and take photos. It should be a great event to shoot. I will be the one with a white '68 Toronado (and green '69 beater Toronado) and a Pentax 6x7 behemoth. With Cars and Coffee not meeting for who-knows how long, this is a great alternative and should be fun.

The Great Indoors is in Lone Tree, CO, at I25 and County Line Road (right before E470). Click HERE for a map of the location.

Jeff Kubach · Aug 24, 2011

I believe the Toronado is one of the first American cars that is front wheel drive.

Jeff

toro_mike · Aug 24, 2011

Jeff Kubach said:
I believe the Toronado is one of the first American cars that is front wheel drive.

Jeff

Well, you'd be correct if you didn't count the 1934 Cord. It was the last until the 1966 Toro came out (with the exception of some very small cars and race cars), though no production front wheel drive was ever as powerful as the 66 Toro - 385HP. The '66 had styling cues from the Cord to pay homage...

Mine being a 1968 came with 375HP and 500ft/lbs of torque

mathomas · Aug 24, 2011

I think I can make this. I might bring my '82 Porsche 911, but will certainly bring a camera, if I come. Thanks for the heads-up, Mike.

toro_mike · Aug 24, 2011

mathomas said:
I think I can make this. I might bring my '82 Porsche 911, but will certainly bring a camera, if I come. Thanks for the heads-up, Mike.

No problem... Hope to see you there Mike, with the Porsche or not! It ought to be a good turnout!

Mike

2F/2F · Aug 24, 2011

toro_mike said:
...no production front wheel drive was ever as powerful as the 66 Toro - 385HP.

Not until 1970; the Eldo came with 400/550 hp/torque, respectively.

But horsepower ratings back then were largely fluff anyhow, as they were gross ratings taken off of the cranks. (They also didn't give much of a hint at actual acceleration capabilities, since they did not factor in the weight of the automobiles, or the gearing. Those 375 horsepower Oldses and Eldos would probably have trouble getting from 0-60 in under 10 seconds unless in the hands of a skilled driver.) When the U.S. auto industry stopped using gross horsepower ratings in the 1970's, the rated horsepower of those 7 and 8 L engines, which had already dropped below 250 due to compression reduction (i.e. smog controls), went down to below 200 due to factoring in the enormous drivetrain losses of the day. That's right: under 200 hp from over 8 L of displacement. They got less power than a modern high-end Honda while displacing over four times as much volume.

My point is that in order to make that statement, the gross hp rating really needs to be converted to net hp, and compared to all the high-performance front wheel drive cars that have come out in the past 20 years. My guess would be that the 385 hp would be closer to 300, in which case several modern fwd autos have it beat.

BYW, have fun at the meet. Show those fools what's up.

toro_mike · Aug 24, 2011

2F/2F said:
Not until 1970; the Eldo came with 400/550 hp/torque, respectively.

But horsepower ratings back then were largely fluff anyhow, as they were gross ratings taken off of the cranks. (They also didn't give much of a hint at actual acceleration capabilities, since they did not factor in the weight of the automobiles, or the gearing. Those 375 horsepower Oldses and Eldos would probably have trouble getting from 0-60 in under 10 seconds unless in the hands of a skilled driver.) When the U.S. auto industry stopped using gross horsepower ratings in the 1970's, the rated horsepower of those 7 and 8 L engines, which had already dropped below 250 due to compression reduction (i.e. smog controls), went down to below 200 due to factoring in the enormous drivetrain losses of the day. That's right: under 200 hp from over 8 L of displacement. They got less power than a modern high-end Honda while displacing over four times as much volume.

My point is that in order to make that statement, the gross hp rating really needs to be converted to net hp, and compared to all the high-performance front wheel drive cars that have come out in the past 20 years. My guess would be that the 385 hp would be closer to 300, in which case several modern fwd autos have it beat.

BYW, have fun at the meet. Show those fools what's up.

Thanks! I think it will be a great meet. I'll post photos when I get the film processed. EDIT: I should have said when I process and scan my film!

You are correct in all that you say, of course. I should have said that none were as powerful BEFORE the 1966 Toro. Also, the 1968 Toronado had a performance package called the W34 package which boosted hp to 400 hp and 500 torque. A touch less torque than the 70 Eldo, but still very impressive. They sadly only made 111 of them, but that engine did go into the Hurst Olds later on in '68. In '69, around 3000 are believed to have been produced.

2F/2F · Aug 24, 2011

Just getting into a car discussion, not busting your balls, Mike. I am an old car lover, so I ain't bustin' their balls either! My first car was a '65 Caddy hearse/ambulance combination coach (22 feet long, 3.5 tons, 429 mill), so I love those old boats.

toro_mike · Aug 24, 2011

I understood where you were coming from and I appreciate your input and clarification. We old car guys (nuts??) have to stick together

My first car was a 1969 Olds Ninety Eight, which was ALMOST as big as that hearse! What a car that hearse/ambulance had to have been...
Thankfully the Toro is a tad smaller...

2F/2F · Aug 24, 2011

I have been out of ownership of an old car since I sold my last one seven years ago. It was a real beauty. A '65 2+2 Mustang that had had a vintage swap done by the original owner (from whom I bought the car). The engine was a rare factory 302 Hi-Po. (I had never even heard of the engine until I got this car; all I knew about were the famous 289 Hi-Po mills.) He had done the proper factory suspension and brake/hub/rear end mods to match (was originally a 6), and it had a three speed stick from a truck. Nice to have the rare engine, even though it was from a later model year, but I wished the car had been original, as that was also a rare combination: 6 cylinder, but instead of the normal 3 speed stick, it had the light duty 4 speed stick that was originally made for Ford's overseas car lines. It was also a very early production fastback, from the first month they were made. Ah, to have back some of the cool stuff I have sold over the years...

toro_mike · Aug 24, 2011

I never heard of the 302 Hi-Po either... Interesting. What year was it from? I would suspect you had your fun with it before it went. That's what counts (at least that's what I tell myself about my past cars)!

mathomas · Aug 25, 2011

My Porsche puts out only 180HP (probably at sea-level, and only when it was new). But it's super-light, and actually goes pretty fast .

toro_mike · Aug 25, 2011

mathomas said:
My Porsche puts out only 180HP (probably at sea-level, and only when it was new). But it's super-light, and actually goes pretty fast .

It probably corners a lot better too

mathomas · Aug 26, 2011

toro_mike said:
It probably corners a lot better too

Yeah, that's definitely it's specialty. Certainly not a drag racer.

toro_mike · Aug 29, 2011

The show was a good time. Thanks to Mike for bringing his 911 and Hassy! I'll get my film developed tonight or so and post when they dry

vpwphoto · Aug 29, 2011

toro_mike said:
Well, you'd be correct if you didn't count the 1934 Cord. It was the last until the 1966 Toro came out (with the exception of some very small cars and race cars), though no production front wheel drive was ever as powerful as the 66 Toro - 385HP. The '66 had styling cues from the Cord to pay homage...

Mine being a 1968 came with 375HP and 500ft/lbs of torque

The front drive L-29 Cord ...started production in 1929!!!!... the 810/812 Beverly and sportsman were late 36, 37 and some considered 38 models.

Miller another American manufacturer had a front wheel drive chassis that competed in the Indy 500 in 1925.

toro_mike · Aug 29, 2011

vpwphoto said:
The front drive L-29 Cord ...started production in 1929!!!!... the 810/812 Beverly and sportsman were late 36, 37 and some considered 38 models.

Miller another American manufacturer had a front wheel drive chassis that competed in the Indy 500 in 1925.

1937 seems to be the generally accepted date, but I will have to look into 1938 reference. The point I was getting at was the major hiatus between the last of the Cords and the 1966 Toronado, both front wheel drive production cars. The Toronado DID bring back front wheel drive to the masses after a fairly long hiatus!!

Love the input guys!

Denver area car show, photo op... 8/27/2011

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