Densitometer 101

Jim Chinn · Nov 15, 2005

Hi folks,

I am considering the purchase of a densitometer. I know there is a good knowledge base on APUG. What I am specifically interested in are the following:

Are used ones found on Ebay a good deal?

What is a good brand that I should look for?

What is a fair price for a used unit?

What is the single best source for learning to use it and incorporate it into my workflow?

Is purchasing new a better option considering you will have a warranty of some sort and factory support?

Who makes new units and which one would be considered good?

I have looked at the ones on the RH Designs site and $600+ once it is shipped is probably out of my price range. I could budget around $400.

But for those who think the RH Designs TR2 is the "bees nuts" let me know why you think it is most advantageous over used or other new units.

Thanks in advance for any and all information.

Donald Miller · Nov 15, 2005

Jim, A lot depends on what you are wanting to do with a densitometer.

For instance if you want to measure only transmission density on black and white film and not have the ability to measure stain effect of pyro developers a Xrite 301 among others will do the job.

If you want to measure the effects of Pyro stain then a color densitomer that has capability to measure blue channel will work. An Xrite 810 would be an example of an instrument of that type.

If you want the ability to measure Pyro stain for UV--alt process, then a model that has a UV channel would be needed. (I forget the Xrite model at the moment).

Beyond that if you want to read reflection densities on prints then you will need that capability. This is normally a separate head that is attached to the reflection densitometer with the Xrite densitometers...even though they do make separate units.

The Xrite 810 that I have does not have UV capability. It does have color, transmission and reflection capability. The cost new would be $5900.00. I bought it on Ebay for $300 and change.

Good luck.

sanking · Nov 15, 2005

I would add to Donald's comments the remark that ebay is a great place to buy densitometers at this time. Much of the pre-press industry is going digital and they are selling off this typo of equipment rapidly. You can sometimes find great bargain.

The X-Rite 810 is an excellent choice since it does both reflectiona and transmission, and in color. But it would not give accurate results for printing UV sensitive processes. For that you will need a UV reading densitometer, such as the X-Rite 361-T or 369, or Gretad D-200-II (with UV tube).

Sandy

Jim Chinn said:
Hi folks,

I am considering the purchase of a densitometer. I know there is a good knowledge base on APUG. What I am specifically interested in are the following:

Are used ones found on Ebay a good deal?

What is a good brand that I should look for?

What is a fair price for a used unit?

What is the single best source for learning to use it and incorporate it into my workflow?

Is purchasing new a better option considering you will have a warranty of some sort and factory support?

Who makes new units and which one would be considered good?

I have looked at the ones on the RH Designs site and $600+ once it is shipped is probably out of my price range. I could budget around $400.

But for those who think the RH Designs TR2 is the "bees nuts" let me know why you think it is most advantageous over used or other new units.

Thanks in advance for any and all information.

edz · Nov 15, 2005

sanking said:
I would add to Donald's comments the remark that ebay is a great place to buy densitometers at this time.

Few if any, however, will be accurate. The status filters in densitomers, unfortunately, don't have a terribly good lifespan (at most 3-5 years even if the densitometer was not used). ALL of the used units (with perhaps a 1 in a million exception) have aged and highly inacurrate status filters, reference plagues and transmission film that are dirty and well out of tolerance and most need a good cleaning. The most robust units (Macbeth 900 series), like all socketed electronics, need to be pulled apart and have their chips cleaned of oxidation. One needs to plan some work and some new filters for anything critical (B&W film testing is NOT critical by any measure).

edz · Nov 15, 2005

Neither Fish nor Meat....

Jim Chinn said:
H
But for those who think the RH Designs TR2 is the "bees nuts" let me know why you think it is most advantageous over used or other new units

The Heiland TR-2 is, to my knowledege, NOT really a spectral densitometer in the technical sense and only really usefull for relative density measurements. I'm under the strong impression that they do not adhere to any of ISO spectral and geometric standards. They provide a kind of measurement quality somewhere between a spectral densitometer and a "baseboard densitometer" (log Time).
Because of the well designed illumination sources and linarity of electronics I'd suggest that a used densitometer even with wack filters is probably better (and at the least, no worse)..

photomc · Nov 15, 2005

Jim, have one of the Xrite 810's and can say it was a good way to be able to get an idea of where negatives are at (and to see the results of film testing)...so agree with Don Miller and Sandy King, it is good unit and can be found at resonable prices.

pentaxuser · Nov 15, 2005

The cost new would be $5900.00. I bought it on Ebay for $300 and change.

Wow. I've heard of bargains and high level depreciation from new but can this be true?Was this $590.00 and not $5900.00?

Pentaxuser

Donald Miller · Nov 15, 2005

pentaxuser said:
The cost new would be $5900.00. I bought it on Ebay for $300 and change.

Wow. I've heard of bargains and high level depreciation from new but can this be true?Was this $590.00 and not $5900.00?

Pentaxuser

Yep $5900.00 was an accurate cost...from the Xrite site.

Jim Chinn · Nov 15, 2005

Thanks for the info everyone, especially on the xrite Don. I will do some searches here and on the LF fourm for other posts and mull it over while I keep on eye out for an 810 in Ebay.

Baxter Bradford · Nov 15, 2005

Thanks for asking this question Jim and to everyone who gave such helpful answers.

Until this thread, I have been in a similar state of disarray at Densitometer models and numbers, having just started using Pyrocat HD and wanting to better understand and control the process and the BTZS book which I have just ordered - as well as finding a use for my E6 work.

Living in the UK, I doubt that we shall be competing for 810's!

frednewman · Nov 15, 2005

I also would recommend the X-Rite 810 densitometer and have been using one for my own BTZS film and paper testing. If you can get on on ebay for what many of the reply's said - that's a deal hard to beat - I sure wish I had paid that.

Fred Newman

fhovie · Nov 16, 2005

I use pyro a lot. I bought the Xrite 361T. (It has a UV Channel) I got it used on e-bay for $100. I bought a new bulb and a step wedge for another $130. When I test a film/developer combination I have objective data and I can shoot with confidence knowing the dynamic range of the film/development combination and its ability to expand and contract the contrast of the scene. Now that I have a densitometer, I can't imagine trying new combos without it. I will admit, once the characteristics of a film/developer combination are known, the densitometer has limited usefulness. The UV channel has limited usefulness depending on the uv sensitivity of the media used to print and the uv content of the light source used to print. There are big differences in uv density over white light density.

Nathan Smith · Nov 16, 2005

fhovie said:
... I will admit, once the characteristics of a film/developer combination are known, the densitometer has limited usefulness...

For those of us who prefer to find a combination that we're comfortable with and stick with it (as long as it's still in production) it seems like the purchase of the densitometer would be for only a one-shot use. Does anyone offer this as a service? I remember reading that Fred Picker offered this once upon a time, does anyone still do this?

While it might be sort of expensive, it would seem to me more practical than buying, learning to use, and storing the densitometer ... again, for those who don't plan to use it often.

Maybe this is a niche that someone here could fill, offer it here on APUG ...

Nathan

JHannon · Nov 16, 2005

frednewman said:
I also would recommend the X-Rite 810 densitometer and have been using one for my own BTZS film and paper testing. If you can get on on ebay for what many of the reply's said - that's a deal hard to beat - I sure wish I had paid that.

Fred Newman

Hi Fred, nice to see you here! I got one of those 810's on Ebay for $250 recently. I bought the cal plates from x-rite which were not cheap but it gives me a solid reference.

fhovie · Nov 16, 2005

nsmith01tx said:
For those of us who prefer to find a combination that we're comfortable with and stick with it (as long as it's still in production) it seems like the purchase of the densitometer would be for only a one-shot use. Does anyone offer this as a service? I remember reading that Fred Picker offered this once upon a time, does anyone still do this?

While it might be sort of expensive, it would seem to me more practical than buying, learning to use, and storing the densitometer ... again, for those who don't plan to use it often.

Maybe this is a niche that someone here could fill, offer it here on APUG ...

Nathan

There are so many variables - but ... whenever someone posts a new brew and people try it, often curves get posted. I posted many curves for TMY, APX100 and TRIX for 510 Pyro. Sandy posted many curves for P'cat. There is an alternative for the densitomer. You can buy a step wedge. You can run a film test and compare it to the values on the step wedge. It will get you pretty close. A film test is not a photo of aunt Mabel. I make mine with MF and after calculating an out of focus evenly lit wall at zone 5, I shoot frame 1 at zone 0 and shoot through zone 11. When I develop, I consider base fog and the first real density change and what zone that was. This is your film speed. If you see a perceptable density change at zone 1 or 2 you calculated your film speed pretty close. I develop for a density range of 1.25 to print on grade 2 paper. Each step is .15 on many step wedges. I should see zone 5 in at around .6, base fog around .2 or less, zone 3 at .3 and zone 8 at about 1.1. With this development, I can capture 9 or 10 zones well. If zone 8 is at 1.3 then development was too long, if zone 8 is at .7, development is too short. Some combos are designed for this. ASA100 films are often chosen to expand the range and exposed and developed to expand 5 zones from .2 to 1.4 densities. This is great for flat scenes that need to be jumped up - scenes in shade or indoors. TRIX and HP5 are usually better for big contrast scenes because they are less contrasty films by nature. You can develop some good curves without a densitomer but for the cost of a lens you can have one on your shelf.

C Rose · Nov 17, 2005

frednewman said:
I also would recommend the X-Rite 810 densitometer and have been using one for my own BTZS film and paper testing. If you can get on on ebay for what many of the reply's said - that's a deal hard to beat - I sure wish I had paid that.

First what does BTZS mean- sorry if that is a newbie question.
Second, and more to the point.... Am I to assume that any densitometer will read B&W. My instructors could not give me a difinitive answer.
I was looking at x-rite 810 but was not sure if it was "just for color" which really doesn't make sense.... but??? Well I didn't know for sure!

THANKS TO ALL APUGGERS FOR MAKING THIS SITE SOOOOOOO GREAT!!!
And to Sean most of all!!!!!!

Beckie

Donald Miller · Nov 17, 2005

C Rose said:
First what does BTZS mean- sorry if that is a newbie question.
Second, and more to the point.... Am I to assume that any densitometer will read B&W. My instructors could not give me a difinitive answer.
I was looking at x-rite 810 but was not sure if it was "just for color" which really doesn't make sense.... but??? Well I didn't know for sure!

THANKS TO ALL APUGGERS FOR MAKING THIS SITE SOOOOOOO GREAT!!!
And to Sean most of all!!!!!!

Beckie

Beckie, You ask good questions. BTZS is Beyond The Zone System. It is another approach to arriving at a defined result. The Xrite 810 will read black and white as well as color.

sanking · Nov 17, 2005

A couple of comments about the X-Rite 810.

First, I bought mine on ebay for the paltry sum of $125 and it is in perfect working condition, and almost mint cosmetically. The fellow was selling it as is and I guess no else wanted to take a chance on it so I was the only bidder. However, I figured that it was probably ok because in the picture provided you could see on the screen that is had passed the self-test diagnosis that this unit does when first turned on.

Second, although I am not certain I believe it may be possible to use the 810 for reading pyro stained negatives. It would require a cut-off UV filter that would pass light in the UV range, say from 340 nm to 420 nm. To take a reading of a stained negative you would set the densitomer for Visual reading, then zero it out with the UV filter in place, and then take readings of the negative densities through the filter.

Problem is, the only UV filters that I have been able to find are glass, and they won't work because of the way the thick glass elevate the reading aperture. I think it may be possible to make a suitable filter by developing exposed film in a staining developer for various development times but have not actually tried it as of yet.

Sandy

JHannon said:
Hi Fred, nice to see you here! I got one of those 810's on Ebay for $250 recently. I bought the cal plates from x-rite which were not cheap but it gives me a solid reference.

dancqu · Nov 18, 2005

Jim Chinn said:
Hi folks,
I am considering the purchase of a densitometer.

Are used ones found on Ebay a good deal?
What is a good brand that I should look for?
What is a fair price for a used unit?

My near new Tobias TB+ cost less $80 off eBay.
The INSTRUCTIONS and all of the support gear were
included. The TB+ is a very nice transmission densitometer.
Calibration standards were included but was not necessary.
Shop eBay but be not in a rush. Dan

PeterB · Nov 19, 2005

frednewman said:
I also would recommend the X-Rite 810 densitometer and have been using one for my own BTZS film and paper testing.

The 810 are still relatively expensive, I've noticed X-rite 'strip reading' densitomers seem to be cheaper than the 810. E.g the DPT32 http://www.xrite.com/discontinued_products.aspx?ID=57
http://cgi.ebay.com.au/X-RITE-DTP32-AUTO-SCAN-DENSITOMETER_W0QQitemZ7564458947QQcategoryZ29993QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem

Has anyone used this kind before for B&W transmission and reflection measurements? Any limitations?

thanks
Peter

Densitometer 101

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