Denser edges w 4x5 Hanger Development: Help Please

gbenaim · Oct 22, 2006

Hello,

As some of you might remember, I'm in search of a method for deving 4x5 that works consistently and can be done w DBI. So I'm trying tanks and hangers, and keep getting one or two sheets in every batch with higher density along the sides, in the shape of the hanger rails, very straight lines. In one case, I got a denser bottom rail. I've been using Rodinal at 1:50 and 1:100 w pre-soaking and agitation for 15 secs once a minute. I'm guessing the problem is w the agitation. So far, I've followed Bruce Barnbaum's instructions in is book, oof lifting out of the tank, tilting to one side without stopping at the end, neither slowly nor fast.
If any of you have dealt w this problem successfully, tell me what worked for you. Thanks, and at least I'm not getting scratches in the middle of every shot as I was w shuffling!

GB

Photo Engineer · Oct 22, 2006

The type of defect you see is typical of a flow pattern of developer during agitation. The hangers I have have small holes in them to allow developer to flow out evenly rather than be retained or flow out over the edges. Even so, I sometimes get small defects on the edges that remind me of sprocket hole defects with bad agitation.

Are you alternating the direction of tilt? Left, right etc...? This might help. I also use a rocking motion towads my body and away as I do the tilt from side to side.

PE

gbenaim · Oct 22, 2006

Hi PE,

I actually am not getting the sprocket holes, just the shape of the rail. I failed to mention I'm using one liter food containers instead of the 2 ltt tanks. Could that have an effect? I do alternate sides, but will also add the forwards and backwards motion. Thanks.

Photo Engineer · Oct 22, 2006

Food containers should be ok AFAIK. There is nothing inherently special about hard rubber tanks or plastic photo tanks or whatnot. The important things are being in the dark, the right time and temp and the right agitation.

Still sounds like an agitation problem of some sort. But who knows, there are so many variables. What developer were you using?

PE

gbenaim · Oct 22, 2006

Rodinal, 1:50 and 1:100.

msage · Oct 22, 2006

gbenaim said:
Hello,

As some of you might remember, I'm in search of a method for deving 4x5 that works consistently and can be done w DBI. So I'm trying tanks and hangers, and keep getting one or two sheets in every batch with higher density along the sides, in the shape of the hanger rails, very straight lines. In one case, I got a denser bottom rail. I've been using Rodinal at 1:50 and 1:100 w pre-soaking and agitation for 15 secs once a minute. I'm guessing the problem is w the agitation. So far, I've followed Bruce Barnbaum's instructions in is book, oof lifting out of the tank, tilting to one side without stopping at the end, neither slowly nor fast.
If any of you have dealt w this problem successfully, tell me what worked for you. Thanks, and at least I'm not getting scratches in the middle of every shot as I was w shuffling!

GB

I use to get same thing. Started using BTZS tubes and later a Jobo Expert drums and had no more problems.
Michael

Photo Engineer · Oct 22, 2006

I think I would have to second that as a good solution to the problem.

PE

Charles Webb · Oct 23, 2006

The problem most certainly agitation, Don't slosh the film, be gentle to the left then to the right, Be very gentle replacing the hangers in the developer, don't just drop them back in, lower them gently guideing them as you go.
I won't wish you "Good Luck" on your agitation, as good luck has nothing to do with making perfect negatives with hangers and tanks. It is all in doing the process as it was intended to be done in the beginning.

gbenaim · Oct 25, 2006

Quick update:

I tried to apply most of the advice received so far. First, I tried the same 1 lt tank but using only kodak hangers, got sprocket holes and density on sides and bottom. Next I tried the large kodak tank, w side tilt every 30 sec only to one side, eliminated extra density on the sides of the neg, still got some att the bottom. Should the kodak tank be filled too the brim, or is it enough to completely cover the neg? I'm getting pretty frustrated, so any help is greatly appreciated.

Neal · Oct 25, 2006

Dear GB,

This is rather a late contribution but I have found in the past that uneven development was due to insufficient agitation rather than too much.

I hope you find your answer soon.

Neal Wydra

joefreeman · Oct 25, 2006

If it's a straight line of higher density it could be due to your film holder. Sometimes the black plastic can reflect light back onto the film during exposure.
If that's the case, taking sand paper to the film holder edges can dull the otherwise smooth and glossy surface, reducing reflection..

KenM · Oct 25, 2006

Charles Webb said:
The problem most certainly agitation, Don't slosh the film, be gentle to the left then to the right, Be very gentle replacing the hangers in the developer, don't just drop them back in, lower them gently guideing them as you go.
I won't wish you "Good Luck" on your agitation, as good luck has nothing to do with making perfect negatives with hangers and tanks. It is all in doing the process as it was intended to be done in the beginning.

I couldn't disagree more.

When I first started with tanks and hangers, I treated the hangers as if they were made of glass. Lift, gently tilt, lower back into the tank. Then, on the next cycle I would lift and tilt the other direction.

I had lots of issues with surge marks. I thought I was being too rough, so I calmed the agitation even more. Didn't help. I finally got a tip from another photographer to *increase* the agitation. The idea is that you want to randomize the movement of the developer, and you can't do that if you're too gentle.

I now agitate for 10 seconds every minute, which is about 6-7 lift-tilt-drop cycles, alternating the tilt direction. I don't drop the hangers back into the tank, but I don't slowly lower them into the tank either.

Again, this works for me, and for the other folks that mentioned it to me. It may not work for you.

I had the same issue with 120 in reels, and increasing agitation fixed the problem for me.

I'm not sure of the hangers that you're using, but I use the Carr hangers that have a U shaped clip that holds the film in place. I never liked the Kodak hangers, as I kept pinching my skin between the long clip and the edge of the hanger. Also make sure that the emulsion side is facing out from the hanger, so the emulsion is not in contact with the hanger.

As you can see, there are as many different ways of developing film as there are noses

KenM · Oct 25, 2006

Neal said:
Dear GB,

This is rather a late contribution but I have found in the past that uneven development was due to insufficient agitation rather than too much.

Exactly. It's counter-intuitive, for sure.

eclarke · Oct 25, 2006

KenM said:
Exactly. It's counter-intuitive, for sure.

Ken weaned me from my Jobo and my agitation is more like a severe drum beat, no babying at all and in 1/2 gallon tanks..seems to be pretty even and I love it...Evan Clarke

gbenaim · Oct 26, 2006

OK, I'll try it w more agitation. Ken, do you lift and tilt 6-7 times in 10 seconds? That sounds very fast! Do you lift vertically the tilt, or is it one sideways motion?

gbenaim · Oct 26, 2006

Evan, why'd you leave the Jobo?

gbenaim · Oct 26, 2006

PS: Do you presoak, and can that have any effect on surge marks? Does anyone have a link to the official kodak instructions?

KenM · Oct 26, 2006

gbenaim said:
OK, I'll try it w more agitation. Ken, do you lift and tilt 6-7 times in 10 seconds? That sounds very fast! Do you lift vertically the tilt, or is it one sideways motion?

Yes, 6-7 times in 10 seconds. Yes, it's fast. Yes, I get very even development.

In the 1/2 gallon tanks I use, you have to lift the hanger up about 3-4 inches, and then tilt, else you bang the edge of the hanger on the side of the tank. Also, since you'll be agitating more, you may have to shorten your dev times to get the correct contrast levels.

gbenaim · Oct 27, 2006

Just for reference, I cut and pasted Kodak's instructions:

Agitating Sheet Film in a Large Tank: Be sure to separate the sheets by at least 1 cm (1/2 inch). When you process films of different sizes together in the same tank, such as 8 x 10-inch and 4 x 5-inch films, separate the hangers containing the different-size films with a hanger loaded with an 8 x 10-inch sheet of acetate or scrap film to avoid uneven development or scratching of the larger sheets. This unevenness is caused by turbulence around the central frame of the multiple-film hanger during agitation. To agitate a sheet of film or a batch of sheet films in hangers in a tank, follow this procedure:

Start the timer. Lower the hangers as a unit into the developer. Tap the hangers sharply against the rim of the tank two or three times to dislodge air bubbles from the surface of the film. (Air bubbles can interfere with development and produce low-density circles on the film.)

Allow the hangers to remain undisturbed for the remainder of the first minute.

Lift all the hangers out of the solution and tilt them almost 90 degrees to the left. Reimmerse the hangers, lift them out again, and then tilt them almost 90 degrees to the right. Do this as quickly and smoothly as possible--in about 5 to 7 seconds.

After you reimmerse the hangers, check their spacing.

Repeat this agitation cycle once every minute during the development time.
Note: Each agitation cycle should take about 6 seconds. When you process large sheets of film (e.g., 8 x 10 inches), be careful not to dislodge them from the hangers by lifting them from the solution too quickly.

eclarke · Oct 27, 2006

gbenaim said:
Evan, why'd you leave the Jobo?

The Jobo is old and has stalled a couple times, the last time I lost an important negative. My darkroom has grown this year and I now have a sophisticated sink setup which means I can have my tanks, trays and homebrew chemistry at the ready and with homebrewing the volume of chemistry is not expensive. I have a fairly excessive formulary set up now. My little half gallon tanks make it nice to just pop one sheet in if I want and I don't have to make a big production of it. As far as agitaion, I am only lifting mine once per cycle but am beating them with a staccato kind of rythm. I do six hangers in the half gallon tank, lift once, holding both sides of the hangers and then beat them rapidly in a cantilevered fashion against the tank, seven beats four times, fairly hard and fast. I am developing Tmax 100 in Germain finegrain, N = 7'45" @ 68 deg. Lift once, repeat the beats once per minute.. seems no scratches and even development, seems like an OK process...Evan

herb · Oct 27, 2006

uneven dev

Just to pile on, I use hangers for every size thru 8x10 and it requires VERY slow
lifting tilting and reimersion.
I use EFKE film a lot, and it is so soft I cannot do trays with any high percentage of no scratches.

Hey, the hangers were used for decades before the JObo came along, I think the jobo must be nice, but with hangers I never touch the film until it is dry

Denser edges w 4x5 Hanger Development: Help Please

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