"Demineralized" water killed my 510-Pyro - a word to the wise

Trask · Oct 12, 2015

In an experimental mood, I decided to "improve" my use of 510-Pyro by purchasing some demineralized water with which to mix the developer, rather than using Paris tap water, which I'd not had trouble with before but if I could make things event better... Well, the negatives came out very, very thin; only a couple that I had deliberately overexposed were readily identifiable re: the subject matter.

I imagine that this water, however it was produced, significantly altered the anticipated pH of the diluted developer, effectively greatly reducing its development activity. It's back to tap water for me.

georg16nik · Oct 12, 2015

...or just get yourself a distiller for total control.

RobC · Oct 12, 2015

it must have the wrong terroir

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33783942

Old-N-Feeble · Oct 12, 2015

^^^ Ha ha... if I spend that much on something to drink then it better get me plenty drunk.

Old-N-Feeble · Oct 12, 2015

RobC said:
it must have the wrong terroir

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-33783942

At least it didn't come from a terrier.

DREW WILEY · Oct 12, 2015

True distilled water would be preferable. But I was under the impression that every real artist in Paris mixed things in absinthe.

Trask · Oct 12, 2015

I did use a distiller a when I was in Islamabad for a year and a half 2012-2014 -- it ain't all-Paris all-the-time for this boy! The distilled water there worked fine with all developers, and also served to keep me hydrated and alive (of secondary importance, I know).

gone · Oct 12, 2015

The demilitarized water probably has a lower PH than tap water, but unless you test the PH of both it's all just guesswork in the dark. The basic mantra is to stick to the same water, same thermometer, etc and everything should be consistent.

Richard S. (rich815) · Oct 12, 2015

Or if you plan to consistently use this de-mineralized water from the same source buy simple and cheap pH strips to test the pH and then do a few test rolls to see what amount of additional development time works and go from there.

Unless of course there is little to any benefit. I tried using distilled water in a few of my steps for quite some time (mixing developer, wash, final rinse with photo flo) and in the end saw little if any benefit to my end results...

Rudeofus · Oct 12, 2015

Did you mix 510-pyro from scratch? Where did you get the TEA from?

juan · Oct 12, 2015

Are you sure you didn't make a mistake in your 510-Pyro dilution? I would think that would be more likely to cause an error than demineralized water. I've used Florida tap water, demineralized water and distilled water to mix 510-Pyro and didn't notice a difference. I have, though, mixed incorrectly with disasterous results.
juan

Gerald C Koch · Oct 12, 2015

The effect of the pH of water keeps coming up ad nauseam. For something like the umpteenth time, pure water has no buffer capacity. It cannot effect the pH of a developer. This is why a buffering system is added to developers for example the borax in D-76. If the water were acidic enough to do what the OP claimed then it would be unfit to drink.

http://www.ask.com/science/buffering-capacity-water-594ab855585ffc9d
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buffer_solution

RobC · Oct 12, 2015

it is possible that trace amounts of metals in the unfiltered water could have an effect but so could humidity, air pressure and all sorts of other minor variables. If you keep your process consistent instead of changing water source then you should get consistent results unless water supply is very variable in quality. But that should be part of your "consistant" processing routine. When I was a young boy visiting relatives in Paris (50 years ago), the tap water was not considered safe to drink which is why everyone drank bottled water. Lead pipes and all sorts of other hazards existed in the Paris water supply and I expect that they still do in many old buildings and districts.

ic-racer · Oct 12, 2015

You could increase your development time or make a more concentrated solution. The thread title makes it seem as if the water somehow damaged the negatives.

pentaxuser · Oct 12, 2015

momus said:
The demilitarized water ....

There's the problem in a nutshell.

pentaxuser

Trask · Oct 12, 2015

Rudeofus said:
Did you mix 510-pyro from scratch? Where did you get the TEA from?

At one point Jay DeFehr was selling 510-Pyro and Obsidian Aqua on eBay, so I bought it back them -- probably about two years ago now. I had just used the concentrate a week before and it worked fine, so I doubt it died that quickly.

As for the pH issue, I'll confess that I made that suggestion because it seems to have been the topic of many discussions previously, but I had not come away from those discussions with the idea that pH could not be a factor. Whether it was pH or mineral content (or lack thereof), the water change made a significant difference.

cliveh · Oct 12, 2015

Trask said:
I imagine that this water, however it was produced, significantly altered the anticipated pH of the diluted developer, effectively greatly reducing its development activity. It's back to tap water for me.

It has nothing to do with the water, you just goofed up the process.

Raphael · Oct 15, 2015

pentaxuser said:
momus said:

The demilitarized water ....

There's the problem in a nutshell.

pentaxuser

Click to expand...

This is water that is no longer Khaki in color !

Raphael · Oct 15, 2015

Trask said:
At one point Jay DeFehr was selling 510-Pyro and Obsidian Aqua on eBay, so I bought it back them -- probably about two years ago now. I had just used the concentrate a week before and it worked fine, so I doubt it died that quickly.

As for the pH issue, I'll confess that I made that suggestion because it seems to have been the topic of many discussions previously, but I had not come away from those discussions with the idea that pH could not be a factor. Whether it was pH or mineral content (or lack thereof), the water change made a significant difference.

Hi Trask,

I am not familiar with the use of Pyro (even if I have a bottle of Pyrogallol which is waiting tests), but about the Paris tap water, you are probably aware that it's heavily chlorinated, I am always struck by the strong chlorine odor it smells sometime when I am back here.

I wonder if Chlorine could be a factor in your process, maybe one of our eminent chemists can have an hint ?

But happening this way, it's rather strange, I would also have thought that purer water would have worked better.

Note to self : move back to Paris, and launch a company that sell bottles of Paris water to Apugers as "the perfect excipient for Pyro"

Rick A · Oct 15, 2015

I have no experience with 510 Pyro, however I have experienced Pyrocat HD going bad. It has nothing to do with which water you used, and everything to do with age or incorrect mix ratio (and the occasional bad thermometer).

pentaxuser · Oct 15, 2015

Raphael said:
pentaxuser said:

This is water that is no longer Khaki in color !

Click to expand...

Glad that someone appreciated my attempt at humour.

pentaxuser

Raphael · Oct 15, 2015

pentaxuser said:
Raphael said:

Glad that someone appreciated my attempt at humour.

pentaxuser

Click to expand...

BTW, I got "Militarized" water in my Jobo water bath, time to change it !

RobC · Oct 15, 2015

boiling water will get rid of the chlorine, it just evaporates off. Don't sniff the steam

Gerald C Koch · Oct 15, 2015

You can make your own "demineralized" water. Just boil it for 2 to 3 minutes and allow it to sit overnight. The calcium ions causing the temporary hardness will precipitate out of solution. The next day just decant the clear water for use in developers. Or alternatively you can filter out the sediment. Any undesired gases such as chlorine and carbon dioxide are also removed by this process.

Rudeofus · Oct 15, 2015

Two things worth may be noting:

"Demineralized" water is by no means 100% pure, it may well contain trace amounts of Iron and Copper ions. There is a good chance that deionized water contains more Iron or Copper ions than your tap water, depending on how the deionized water is prepared, what the piping in your house is made from and a number of other factors.
Your developer packages were already old, as you write, and both Iron and Copper ions will harm Ascorbic Acid yet more. Ryuji Suzuki used TEA and Salicylic Acid in his ascorbate developers to chelate Iron and Copper, but Jay de Fehr's recipe contains only TEA, so combined with the previous note there may be a reason why your recent film development attempt went went awry.

"Demineralized" water killed my 510-Pyro - a word to the wise

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