Delta3200/Tmax3200 long time storage AND cosmic radiation.

I have seen many expired films from far behind. Expiration dates of bw films 1964 for example. Some were posted also here - 1957 / 1973 / 1971 a.s.o.
No wonder about foggy results in some cases (just from my point).
A film with ISO 3200 is more in danger (from general issue of emulsion design) compared with an ISO 50 film - right? The mentioned Delta and Tmax have 32 times more speed in comparison. (If we just would rate a true BOX / ISO characteristic of ISO 1600) That might be not very precise because true ISO of 1000 - 1200 is often mentioned with both films but that doesn't matter here.
How about long time storage then?
A simple frezer should protect the emulsion from aging. The less temperature the better. But what about
radiation. From my point houses built of stone give good protection against radiation. (A wooden hut will fulfill this task also but it isn't real good of course).
Everything might be relative - but what about the thin metal base of a freezer?
It is a good protection from my oppinium. But high speed films may have a need of factor 32 (better protection compared with PANF ? )

Has anybody noticed fog on Tmax3200 after 5 - 10 years storage (in normal freezer storage) ?
Minoltafan gave us a hint of max. 12 month storage of Tmax3200.
But first it is within the guarantee from expired date. Second it might be due to extreme low tolerance of manufacturer original condition : (fog isn't noticable but may be identyfied in manufacturers research laboratory )

What is your general experience from long storage of bw films (longer as guaranteed from expiration) AND fog (not from wrong developement of course) ?
From my point the use of led backs in addition should give protection to boths films to more than 10 - 15 years against "visible fog". Would you agree?

with regards

PS : Don't use too many led backs in freezers. Especialy a wooden hut has riscs of statics.... !

Sorry "lead" .... "lead bags" ...

with regards

Lead film vault at zero Kelvin, no worries

ive never had super foggy tmz from cosmic radiation, just loss of speed.
( im talking dresser drawer stored ambinet living temps between 60-70ºF
that was 10 years old ). it developed perfectly in sumatranol 130. clear film base
scanned and darkroom-pritned perfectly.

I think that this dilemma was the REAL reason for it being discontinued. David Lyga says:

"THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A FILM OFFERED FOR SALE THAT HAS A PROPENSITY TOWARD FOGGING AS TMX 3200. PERIOD."

I have been fooling around with a roll which expired in 1997 (I develop one inch at a time for testing purposes) and have come to this conclusion: NO film is as much trouble as is old TMZ film. What I do is use restrainer in this way:

Develop (at 80F) using Dektol (1 + 9) for eight minutes with 20% of the working solution made up of 'MY' restrainer which is made this way:

3 gram Benzotriazole + 25 g baking soda in WTM one liter of restrainer. (It keeps permanently and does not have to be airtight.) So if you are using a working solution of, say, 250 mL, you would use 200 mL of the Dektol (1 + 9) plus 50 mL of 'MY' restrainer. There is something about the sodium bicarbonate used in conjunction with the BZ, that aids greatly in reduction of fog.

I rate the film at a whopping EI 4. Yes, that is about seven stops slower than the purported actual speed of ISO 800. It is as bad as this, but doing what I proposed will garner the necessary contrast with adequate shadow detail. - David Lyga

Give it up. Kodak reportedly stored master rolls of TMZ in abandoned mines to protect them from cosmic radiation between coating and finishing. Substantial quantities of earth (but not radioactive granite) is the only practical way to attenuate the fogging rays. If one is concerned that the reintroduced TMZ might not be available for long, i.e. if you're a Kodak bankruptcy speculator, this company's refrigerated underground storage facility might be for you:

Lead bags won't help, some of the radiation goes through the earth from the other side before it gets to your film. I think the best solution is to use it instead of storing it.
Now I just need to follow my own advice and use up some of my fridge-full of mostly outdated film.

David Lyga said:

I think that this dilemma was the REAL reason for it being discontinued. David Lyga says:

"THERE HAS NEVER BEEN A FILM OFFERED FOR SALE THAT HAS A PROPENSITY TOWARD FOGGING AS TMX 3200. PERIOD."

I have been fooling around with a roll which expired in 1997 (I develop one inch at a time for testing purposes) and have come to this conclusion: NO film is as much trouble as is old TMZ film. What I do is use restrainer in this way:

Develop (at 80F) using Dektol (1 + 9) for eight minutes with 20% of the working solution made up of 'MY' restrainer which is made this way:

3 gram Benzotriazole + 25 g baking soda in WTM one liter of restrainer. (It keeps permanently and does not have to be airtight.) So if you are using a working solution of, say, 250 mL, you would use 200 mL of the Dektol (1 + 9) plus 50 mL of 'MY' restrainer. There is something about the sodium bicarbonate used in conjunction with the BZ, that aids greatly in reduction of fog.

I rate the film at a whopping EI 4. Yes, that is about seven stops slower than the purported actual speed of ISO 800. It is as bad as this, but doing what I proposed will garner the necessary contrast with adequate shadow detail. - David Lyga

Click to expand...

E.I. 4...... aproximate 4ASA is a bit "hard"
to an actual ISO 800/30 film...
So the lost of speed is a massive problem - I see. On the other hand expiration 1997 is also massive. But last issue is not that problem with " normal " bw films. (PanF, Fp4, Tri-x, APX 100/400 a.s.o)
A friend shot the remaining frames of a "in camera" film of his father in 6x6 (Hp5) with an age before 1985.
I saw the prints - total normal characteristics. (He shot E.I ISO 200/24 from my recomandation.)

with special greetings to you David

bdial said:

Lead bags won't help, some of the radiation goes through the earth from the other side before it gets to your film. I think the best solution is to use it instead of storing it.
Now I just need to follow my own advice and use up some of my fridge-full of mostly outdated film.

Click to expand...

Better Do it and refresh your storage of films a little. ISS reported also problems on board electronics several times in 2017.
Possible this will help to "prepare" film stuff for next shootings and monitore freezers :
www.spaceweatherLive.com

with regards

The problem is not really cosnic rays but rather background radiation. For example granite is rather radioactive as is the black sand on Hawaiian beaches. Why anyone would want granite counter tops is a mystery to me. There is water from thermal springs which contains radon gas. Don't store film in basements as radon is denser than air and accumulates there. So there are many sources of radiation in the environment. BTW limit your intake of Brazil nuts as they contain lots of potassium because of radioactive potassium 40.

Gerald C Koch said:

The problem is not really cosnic rays but rather background radiation. For example granite is rather radioactive as is the black sand on Hawaiian beaches. Why anyone would want granite counter tops is a mystery to me. There is water from thermal springs which contains radon gas. Don't store film in basements as radon is denser than air and accumulates there. So there are many sources of radiation in the environment. BTW limit your intake of Brazil nuts as they contain lots of potassium because of radioactive potassium 40.

Click to expand...

I just remember that issue of radon gas at basements from university. (Ballon experiment) - but that kind of rays are not strong (kokonuts,bananas, k14 type) - 1,5 mm steel from normal freezers will absorbe that "mini sized ratiation"
with regards

PS : don't be afraid of eating bananas - we calculated it (135 kg/day) is the dosis of no risc. ....if I remenber correct.
Factor 10 up to factor 100 would bring you to the doctor after several years. (If you will not die before from eating to much bananas..)

K40 sorry (k14 is "non radioaktive" Kodachrome) of course. ...

with regards

trendland said:

E.I. 4...... aproximate 4ASA is a bit "hard"
to an actual ISO 800/30 film...
So the lost of speed is a massive problem - I see. On the other hand expiration 1997 is also massive. But last issue is not that problem with " normal " bw films. (PanF, Fp4, Tri-x, APX 100/400 a.s.o)
A friend shot the remaining frames of a "in camera" film of his father in 6x6 (Hp5) with an age before 1985.
I saw the prints - total normal characteristics. (He shot E.I ISO 200/24 from my recomandation.)

with special greetings to you David

Click to expand...

You are correct: the slower the film the LESS speed it loses over the years. I do not know why this is, but, I promise, PAN F+ bought twenty years ago should still be fine. - David Lyga

High speed films don't keep well. Period. Use and process them in a realistic time frame. You can't hoard em.

michael_r said:

For once I agree with Drew.
This thread is ridiculous. If you have to worry about cosmic radiation, you really need a different hobby.

Click to expand...

Or wear an aluminum foil hat.

Gerald C Koch said:

BTW limit your intake of Brazil nuts as they contain lots of potassium because of radioactive potassium 40.

Click to expand...

The body will immediately excrete excess Potassium. I.e. the amount in your body will remain constant if you have working kidneys. If you don't then high Potassium intake will stop your heart. Dialysis patients are painfully aware of this.

You can eat as many nuts and bananas as you like, the radioactive dose from 40K will never change.

Gerald C Koch said:

Don't store film in basements as radon is denser than air and accumulates there.

Click to expand...

I very much doubt that film is fogged by radon gas in natural atmosphere.
(In theory, based on the energy of the Apha-partikel it should work, but there have no film-dosimeters made for Radon exposition, to the contrary: its usability is doubted.)

Furthermore gases do not form layers but diffuse into each other.
Radon concentration is higher in basements not due to its higher density but because the basement is next to to the ground, out of which Radon diffuses.

E. von Hoegh said:

Lead film vault at zero Kelvin, no worries

Click to expand...

another research project for the ISS!

Similar research has been done in space.

David Lyga said:

You are correct: the slower the film the LESS speed it loses over the years. I do not know why this is, but, I promise, PAN F+ bought twenty years ago should still be fine. - David Lyga

Click to expand...

Yes I understand David."Last issue is not that problem with "normal" bw films [films at lower speed] like PanF, Fp4....a.s.o. " is meant from last issue [ the massive lost of speed with highest speed films].

with regards

PS : Little missunderstanding - not more.
I never care about speed lost with PanF by the way - I never noticed this.

Sirius Glass said:

Or wear an aluminum foil hat.

Click to expand...

....
with regards

michael_r said:

For once I agree with Drew.
This thread is ridiculous. If you have to worry about cosmic radiation, you really need a different hobby.

Click to expand...

The question goes to store some of todays films for a period at about 10 - 15 years.(may be just 8 years).
2005 - 2006 I payed $ 29,95 on a box
10 x Kodak Elitechrome Extra color. (amateuric version of E100 VS). After this the pricing was less : $ 27,95 !
To me the better way to buy 100 films years ago - in comparison to todays pricing. My freezer is expensive from costs of energy. Nevertheless Fujis pricing on todays Velvia 100 is more expensive.
May be Velvia 100 is the little better film than 10 years ago Ektachrome amateuric version. What is the todays pricing of Velvia 100 ? Around 13 bucks from my point. $ 1300,- is a little more than $ 279,-. I bought some of 350 by the way.
But before storing of some special bw films of highest speed - I just think about.
with regards

PS : No fog or color shifts on a single K film. Massive shifts on the whole Agfa Stuff by the way. (I bought not so many of Agfa E6).

with regards

I keep unopened film in the freezer and opened (unsealed) film in the refrigerator in a Zip-Lock bag.

it isn't the cosmic rays you need to worry about
it is the muons.

It is not the radon that is the problem but rather the many daughters some of which are beta emitters and have enough energy to fog film. Beng a gas radon can easily get past most film packaging. The polyethylene conisters are not air tight. Neigther are paper products.

The radiation from alpha emitters is too weak to pass through the skin. However once inside the body there is no protection for internal tissues. Therein lies the problem.