Delta 100 in Rodinal

Mark Layne · Nov 28, 2004

Today I started to print a frame from a roll of Delta 100 and when I looked at the first print it was spattered with small black spots-not all of them round.
I checked the rest of the roll and every frame full of random pinholes.
I then checked other rolls of FP4 and EFKE 25 from the same vacation developed from the same bottle of Rodinal and no problems.
Suggestions anyone?

Mark

BWGirl · Nov 28, 2004

Can you tell us more about your process?? Since the other films were not damaged in any way, could it have been a flaw in the film itself? Did you use a water stop bath?

I have developed Delta 100 in Rodinal many, many times without a problem. I have used it 1:25 and 1:50 with a water stop bath.

I guess because the other films were not bothered, I would tend to think that there must have been a flaw in the film; or if you used regular stop bath (not water) it could have eaten the holes...but it would be odd since nothing happened to the other rolls...especially the FP4 (I'm not familiar with the Efke).

joeyk49 · Nov 28, 2004

BWGirl: Why water stop? Does chemical stop bath react poorly with the Rodinal?

marcello.brussard · Nov 29, 2004

I routinely use rodinal with delta 100 (i like the biteing sharpness of this combo) and never had such problems, yet I always use water as a stop bath. I've read somewhere that rodinal's reaction with acetic stop bath could damage the film and a friend of mine's report seems to point in this direction.

rjr · Nov 29, 2004

Jeanette,

the only danger of _real_ pinholes is to be expected under two situations:

- a developer containing lots of carbonates and
- a deep tank processor

It needs the hydrostatic pressure down in the tank to form enough CO2 in the emulsion to rupture it and only this is called "pinholes". I have never seen it.

And there is no sodium carbonate in Rodinal. It´s not the Rodinal, it´s not strong enough (in fact it will degenerate within 2h after mixing the solution).

Another thing I have seen and suffered myself are weak emulsions - usually in reversal processes with plain vanilla bw films. My best guess it is the stress of switching from highly alkaline solutions to acid solutions and vice versa over a longer period of time.

I fixed this with the help of intermediate stopping baths, 3% acetic acid stop baths between the steps, it helped reducing the "shock" putting the swelled emulsion into the bleach.

If the emulsion breaks the pieces are scattered all around on the film surface, you will notice it immediately when pouring out the solution (water, fix, whatever) - it will be grey.

Sometimes it´s a production flaw, I have heard it before with APX and Ilford films. Go back to the producer, give them a sample negative and the emulsion number to check their backup rolls in the freezer.

rogueish · Nov 29, 2004

Are you sure they are pinholes?
There was a batch of film from Ilford that had black grit like contaminants in the emulsion. At that time Ilford remedied the problem and offered to replace any unused film from that batch. (was about a year ago, so I doubt the offer still stands.) If you have more of the Delta 100 that was bought at the same time, check the batch codes against the "problem" roll (if you still have the info).
I just developed 2 rolls of Delta 100 in rodinal (1+50) last night and they came out rather nice and will likely be printing some this week.

Mark Layne · Nov 29, 2004

I can only think that it was the stop bath but I normally mix this very weak.
The tonality was excellent but the grain was obtrusive and perhaps there was a drop in the temp of incoming wash water.
This roll had been in the freezer and did go through two sets of X-rays.
However I have never seen this before in 40 years.

Mark

BWGirl · Nov 29, 2004

I guess I'd run a little test, Mark... especially if the lot codes are the same on any unexposed rolls. I'd shoot a roll and develop it using a water stop bath & shoot a second roll using whatever stop bath you used before.

If both rolls have the same problem, you will know it is the film. Send an email to Ilford and give them all the details & the lot code.

If the roll in the water stop bath is good, well then... I guess that's the answer!

Ed Sukach · Nov 29, 2004

"Grit" in the film emulsion will be opaque; therefore print white.

Pinholes are actually holes - no density, and will print black.

Some years ago. there was a wide-spread discussion about pinholes and their cause. At the time, a number of film manufacturesrs participated, and the general consensus was that an acid stop bath, reacting with the alkaline developer was usually the cause. I remember Ilford, in particular, advocating the elimination of all acidic stop baths entirely, and substituting either nothing or a water rinse.

I have followed that advice, and in the last six or seven years, have been "film pinhole" (bad) free, except for *one* that cropped up about two weeks ago. I remember that one, because it is totally unacceptable on that particular figure study. Unfortunately, it seems that very little in photography is governed by absolute, infallible, rock steady rules. Translation: Sh*t Happens.

The theory of the use of a stop bath is interesting: supposedly it is used to stop the developing action immediately; but does the development continuing for an additional five or ten seconds really have a significant effect on the final image?
Even if such precision -- note also that whatever effect it had would be reasonably repeatable -- was desirable, as far as I know, no study has ever been done of the comparison of "development stopping times" between an acid stop bath and a water rinse.

dschneller · Nov 29, 2004

Mark Layne said:
Today I started to print a frame from a roll of Delta 100 and when I looked at the first print it was spattered with small black spots-not all of them round.
I checked the rest of the roll and every frame full of random pinholes.
I then checked other rolls of FP4 and EFKE 25 from the same vacation developed from the same bottle of Rodinal and no problems.
Suggestions anyone?

Mark

Mark, I bulk load Delta 100 and have also noticed 'grit' or small black spots on the developed film. This has occured using Microdol-X, Ilfosol S, and T-max developer. I have not seen any 'pinholes' just the black spots and it has only been on a small number of frames. Most rolls are completely free of defects. I think rogueish is correct in stating that this is due to a manufacturing defect.

Dave

Mark Layne · Nov 29, 2004

BWGirl said:
I guess I'd run a little test, Mark... especially if the lot codes are the same on any unexposed rolls. I'd shoot a roll and develop it using a water stop bath & shoot a second roll using whatever stop bath you used before.

If both rolls have the same problem, you will know it is the film. Send an email to Ilford and give them all the details & the lot code.

If the roll in the water stop bath is good, well then... I guess that's the answer!

Jeanette
This was the last roll of a few I bought about a year ago, the others were fine although used much earlier. Truthfully I'm not excited by these tab grain films, they're sharp yet they dont look sharp. I just wonder if this film had an accidental exposure to tropical heat and humidity

Mark

FrankB · Nov 29, 2004

Just another voice crying out in echo:

Several rolls of Delta 100 135-36 in Rodinal at 1:25 for 9 minutes with Ilfostop and Ilford Rapid Fixer - No nasties to report.

TPPhotog · Nov 29, 2004

Looks like everything has been covered and again lots of Rodinal use (1+100 to 1+25) on several types of films without any problems. I only use water as a stop-bath though rather than lfostop.

Have you considered the Rodinal Moth? Nasty little beasties and the only thing Morten is scared of

clogz · Nov 29, 2004

Aha! So that's why he wears that latex suit.

TPPhotog · Nov 29, 2004

clogz said:
Aha! So that's why he wears that latex suit.

Yep

john_s · Nov 29, 2004

Any chance of some remnants of powder developer getting on the film while loading in the darkroom?

Have you looked at the spots under high magnification, such as a microscope? A student binocular dissecting microscope with above and below illumination might reveal whether the spots are bits of emulsion damage, developed silver, some additional meterial stuck on the surface etc.

modafoto · Nov 30, 2004

TPPhotog said:
Yep

I don't wear it myself (my body is NOT fit for tight clothes )

But I am hell scared of the Rodinal Moth!

rogueish · Nov 30, 2004

Mark Layne said:
This was the last roll of a few I bought about a year ago, the others were fine although used much earlier.
Mark

Mark
It was about a year ago when many people using Ilford films reported this problem. I had one roll with these small black specks myself. At the time I was hanging around the Ilford forums (with several other suscribers and members currently hanging here). Ilford investigated and said it was a manufactor problem that was corrected, and issued a recall at the time. Only certian batches were affected and if I remember correctly, it was a small number.
I use Ilford HC and Rodinal and have always used Ilford stopbath. With the exception of the one roll mentioned above, I've never had a problem with film.
Coffee shakes, poor judgement and lack of focus is another matter...

Mark Layne · Nov 30, 2004

TPPhotog said:
Looks like everything has been covered and again lots of Rodinal use (1+100 to 1+25) on several types of films without any problems. I only use water as a stop-bath though rather than lfostop.

Have you considered the Rodinal Moth? Nasty little beasties and the only thing Morten is scared of

I conclude that the Rodinal Moth hatches in acetic acid
Mark

Delta 100 in Rodinal

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