delayed fix process for the print

YJL · Dec 10, 2020

I was wondering what happens if I do fix but delayed for FB prints. This question raised by the situation that I need to print 7-10 prints and I have only two trays. So I was thinking what if I print all print in a roll but only develop / stopper stage then fix them later all together. I know this is not field manual process but was thinking why not. My concerns are

1. Assuming the print was staying enough time in stopbath, still delayed fixing stage would be problem?
2. Also there would be two cases of dried print or still wet, while prints are waiting for fixing stage
3. Exposing light while waiting for fixing would effect on the print?

Any experience or knowledge would be appreciated, thank you.

Ian Grant · Dec 10, 2020

Not a good idea, just get another tray or two. You need one for the prints after fixing as well.

Ian

Donald Qualls · Dec 10, 2020

Enlarging paper will print out -- that is, display density without developer action -- much more rapidly than film would, so storing unfixed prints in white light would be prone to muddying the highlights, converting what should be paper white to some level of gray correctible only by bleaching. Drying the prints may cause problems, as well; loss of the acidity of stop bath could result in some development taking place during drying (which shouldn't be a problem unless white light exposure has taken place).

If you can do everything still under safelight, however, and keep the print wet, there's no reason fixing needs to be carried out instantly. I'd be inclined to let the prints stack up in the stop bath in your situation (beware of light exposure in stop bath, however; I've had prints drastically change tone, from cold to very warm, when this occurred), or use a single tray process (pour in and pour out each bath in succession) and use the second tray with plain water to hold the prints before washing.

YJL · Dec 10, 2020

Thank you guys. I guess, of course, there must be a troubles. And wanted to know what exactly happens. Yes, it seems not a good idea if I have to print some important and relatively large prints..

Thanks Donald, I appreciate your explanation always. Best,

Donald Qualls said:
Enlarging paper will print out -- that is, display density without developer action -- much more rapidly than film would, so storing unfixed prints in white light would be prone to muddying the highlights, converting what should be paper white to some level of gray correctible only by bleaching. Drying the prints may cause problems, as well; loss of the acidity of stop bath could result in some development taking place during drying (which shouldn't be a problem unless white light exposure has taken place).

If you can do everything still under safelight, however, and keep the print wet, there's no reason fixing needs to be carried out instantly. I'd be inclined to let the prints stack up in the stop bath in your situation (beware of light exposure in stop bath, however; I've had prints drastically change tone, from cold to very warm, when this occurred), or use a single tray process (pour in and pour out each bath in succession) and use the second tray with plain water to hold the prints before washing.

138S · Dec 10, 2020

YJL said:
I was wondering what happens if I do fix but delayed for FB prints. This question raised by the situation that I need to print 7-10 prints and I have only two trays. So I was thinking what if I print all print in a roll but only develop / stopper stage then fix them later all together. I know this is not field manual process but was thinking why not. My concerns are

1. Assuming the print was staying enough time in stopbath, still delayed fixing stage would be problem?
2. Also there would be two cases of dried print or still wet, while prints are waiting for fixing stage

Once you have the paper in the stop bath you can delay the fixing as long you want, no problem.

YJL said:
3. Exposing light while waiting for fixing would effect on the print?

Modern papers (many) include hydroquinone developer in the emulsion, if you fog the paper with light those crystals newly exposed/fogged can start development if the fixer is alkaline a contributing factor would be using a water stop bath instead an acid stop bath.

I had that problem when openning lights too early with test strips paper in the alkaline fixer (with water stop bath), they became black.

_________________

Test, Test & Test

Take a not exposed (in the enlarger) paper strip and do the process you say. If some no density is built (compared to a not delayed strip) they you are in the safe side.

_________________

YJL said:
I have only two trays.

Go to any chinese bazaar and take any storage/food/taperware container, made of plastic, stainless steel or glass, anything does the job, even a cartoon protected with kitchen plastic film would work, use it for the stop bath...

koraks · Dec 10, 2020

138S said:
Once you have the paper in the stop bath you can delay the fixing as long you want, no problem.

The paper *WILL* print out as Donald said.
Quoting your post:

138S said:
Test, Test & Test

If you had tested this, you would have known.
You would also have known that the printing out happens, but the first stage of printing out (when the paper turns yellow/tan) is mostly reversible - but not entirely. In other words, some density will remain, albeit only a little bit. Side by side you may actually see differences depending on how long you wait with fixing while keeping the paper in room light.

So it is NOT a good idea to develop, stop, then wait a few minutes in room light, and only then start fixing. It's even much less of a good idea to wait more than 'a few' minutes and make it 'many' minutes.

Disclaimer: I actually do delay fixing in some cases when I want to mess around with developer on the entirely exposed print. So I know first-hand what happens when you keep a non-fixed print around in a tray in room light.

138S · Dec 10, 2020

koraks said:
The paper *WILL* print out as Donald said.
Quoting your post:

If you had tested this, you would have known.
You would also have known that the printing out happens, but the first stage of printing out (when the paper turns yellow/tan) is mostly reversible - but not entirely. In other words, some density will remain, albeit only a little bit. Side by side you may actually see differences depending on how long you wait with fixing while keeping the paper in room light.

So it is NOT a good idea to develop, stop, then wait a few minutes in room light, and only then start fixing. It's even much less of a good idea to wait more than 'a few' minutes and make it 'many' minutes.

Disclaimer: I actually do delay fixing in some cases when I want to mess around with developer on the entirely exposed print. So I know first-hand what happens when you keep a non-fixed print around in a tray in room light.

As you "balme" me to not testing, I left prints in a water stop for two days (in darkness) as I had to leave, with no effect noticed and having perfect whites when two days later the prints were fixed, so I have tested it. Also I always open lights to inspect test strips and prototype prints when they are in the stop bath, with effects ranging to absolute no effect to obtaining a totally black print, as explained, but I saw no effect with mild acid stop and acid fixer, no additional development can happen in that situation, and halide will stay halide until diluted in the fixer.

If you read well all the points in my post (see 3rd point answer) you'll find I say mostly the same than Donald, but not mentioning a tone shift that may happen in a very strong acid bath in the long term.

Still having "effects" depends on several factors like the kind of paper, stop and fixer, so best is trying with the particular situation, easy to try it, isn't it?

Even easier is adding a contingency tray from a bazaar

Still exploring that with particular chem we use it's quite interesting, as inspecting the test strips and prototype prints as soon as possible saves time to advance in the print manipulation, but we also want the print dried in perfect shape to make a final judgement, of course speaking about print in what we want an optimal job.

MattKing · Dec 10, 2020

If you don't mind wasting fixer, you can go straight from developer to fixer instead. But you will exhaust fixer really, really quickly. At the very least you should try to rinse the developer off before the print goes into the fixer.

138S · Dec 10, 2020

MattKing said:
If you don't mind wasting fixer, you can go straight from developer to fixer instead.

And if fixer is of alkaline type... probably fixer would not be damaged at all...

koraks · Dec 10, 2020

138S said:
As you "balme" me to not testing, I left prints in a water stop for two days (in darkness) as I had to leave, with no effect noticed and having perfect whites when two days later the prints were fixed, so I have tested it.

Barely relevant as OP's printing sessions won't be in the dark.

138S · Dec 10, 2020

koraks said:
Barely relevant as OP's printing sessions won't be in the dark.

Yes, that segment you quote is barely relevant, but the tray can be easily obscured, say covering it with a cartoon box upside down can be enough...

What it can be relevant is that a right combination of mildly acid stop and an acid fixer may allow no effect in the print (lights open after stop well done), at least I don't see any effect in my test strips. But as I mentioned, I also obtained a totally black print after a water stop and alkaline fixer... so YMMV, depending on the chem/paper one uses, and on wanting to use the right chem to allow that.

Still, having the possibility to open lights when test stripes are just well stopped can be quite interesting, as it speeds up the print manipulation workflow, saving several minutes in each try, so IMO it's interesting to experiment with that, beyond OP's question...

koraks · Dec 10, 2020

138S said:
Still, having the possibility to open lights when test stripes are just well stopped can be quite interesting

Sort of; it only saves about a minute or so. I usually fix my test strips very briefly, 20 seconds or so. They'll fog after a day, but then they've already served their purpose.

MattKing · Dec 10, 2020

138S said:
And if fixer is of alkaline type... probably fixer would not be damaged at all...

This isn't correct - the developer will still inhibit the alkaline fixer's operation, even if the pH change won't be as important.

pentaxuser · Dec 10, 2020

138S you have expanded on your first statement quite a lot since your original state which was only "Once you have the paper in the stop bath you can delay the fixing as long you want, no problem.

It might have helped the OP quite a lot. I know what happens if you expose a print on stop bath to full room light but the OP's question suggests that he does not so additional information would have been useful in my opinion

pentaxuser

138S · Dec 11, 2020

MattKing said:
This isn't correct - the developer will still inhibit the alkaline fixer's operation, even if the pH change won't be as important.

Potentially developer and fixer can coexist in the same bath, as monobath processing shows, but of course all depends on the particukar chem...

This is something it can be tested, by mixing several concenrations of developer in the alkaline fixer. We know how much developer is transported to fixer by comparing the weight of a dry print with the one of a wet print.. Then we may see the clearing time of a film end to know de developer strength of the fresh fixer compared to the fixer containing different developer concentrations, and cheking density of and unexposed and fixed paper strip.

138S · Dec 11, 2020

koraks said:
Sort of; it only saves about a minute or so. I usually fix my test strips very briefly, 20 seconds or so. They'll fog after a day, but then they've already served their purpose.

They will fog after a day if you remove the strips from developer after 20 seconds... because you leave silver halide in the emulsion... of course

But if you open lights after 20 seconds in the fixer and you allow the fixing to complete,after inspection, I doubt the fogging takes place as you remove all silver halide and nothing will be able to build density the next morning....

koraks · Dec 11, 2020

138S said:
But if you open lights after 20 seconds in the fixer and you allow the fixing to complete,after inspection, I doubt the fogging takes place

That's correct. I do this generally with prints. With test strips, I'm considerably less patient

138S · Dec 11, 2020

MattKing said:
the developer will still inhibit the alkaline fixer's operation, even if the pH change won't be as important.

Matt, let me add something after I searched a bit...

Provide we use double bath fixing (which is highly efficient and ensures archival permanence, say LE500...) , in that situation it would be interesting eliminating the stop bath tray (with alkaline fixer), to not have four trays there... which is inconvenient for big prints.

Monobath processing gives a clue about potential compatibility for having some developer in the alkaline fixer... Cinestill Monobath Df96 is stated providing archival results for film, in this case Fixer and Developer are mixed totally in a single bath.

Stil some monobath soups may have a short shelf life, but this is not because fixer decay, but from developer decay... in Monobath processing NaOH may be used to accelerate development to take place before fixer action has cleared the much halide that it would develop... that accelerator overdose is what it may provocate a decay in the developer sooner, but fixer strength won't be damaged.

A prospective modified 3 trays workflow would be using a tray for developer and two trays for double alkaline fixer. As alkaline fixer does not require hypo clearing this would be quite an straight path to get a LE500 print in the print washer...

Personally I had been considering that way, inspired with information from monobath film processing, not to process the prints in a monobath, but to eliminate the stop and going directly to the double alkaline bath, information from film monobath suggests that developer transported with the print into the 1st alkaline fixer won't harm it, possibly this would not challenge permanence, and the "fresh" second fixer bath would nail a perfect job.

Still this way should be tested well for chem compatibility and LE500 complex rate... because if not an additional stop trays is a well tested method !

____

An intersting page about film monobath:

http://www.mr-alvandi.com/technique/monobath-developing-process.html

delayed fix process for the print

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