Definitive & accepted wash method?

citizenx · May 10, 2022

Hi all! Ahead of me developing my first roll of film (starting with B&W, then trying C41), I’ve been going over the developing process when lo and behold, I’ve gone down the rabbit hole with wash methods.

Aside from the environmentally conscious reasons (we are in drought mode in California), my development location will not be near a sink/running water, so I’ll need a reliable method that doesn’t require running water, but that should yield archival results.

From what I’ve read, there was some doubt cast on the Ilford wash method, which according to PE, was formulated under very specific conditions (that may not have universally reproducible results), and from a necessity for water conservation.

While PE gave seemingly valid reasons for why the Ilford wash may only possibly satisfy the low end of acceptable, I don’t recall that he provided an alternative and acceptable method that doesn’t use running water.

So my questions:

1. Is there a Photrio community accepted method that is superior to the Ilford wash method that doesn’t require running water?

2. Whichever method you all recommend, can I use this same method for washing C41 between the developer & fixer, and between the fixer & stabilizer?

Thanks in advance!

Sirius Glass · May 10, 2022

Note that I live in West Los Angeles with the same concerns and very hard water.
Temper this with the fact that I am using constant bidirectional rotation of a Jobo processor for C-41, XTOL and Pyrocat HD development. I use eight 30 second to 45 second washes and I have had no problems with residual fixer.

MattKing · May 10, 2022

The Kodak recommendation gives you two choices, but they are both predicated on using a wash-aid as well.
Note however the very low flow rate required for "running" water
https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/edbwf-2008_10.pdf

Sirius Glass · May 10, 2022

MattKing said:
The Kodak recommendation gives you two choices, but they are both predicated on using a wash-aid as well.
Note however the very low flow rate required for "running" water
https://125px.com/docs/techpubs/kodak/edbwf-2008_10.pdf

Running water even at a low flow rate is now going to be a problem in California and the US Southwest for a while.

BrianShaw · May 10, 2022

For B&W I use the Ilford method. Conserves water and does a good job.

MattKing · May 10, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
Running water even at a low flow rate is now going to be a problem in California and the US Southwest for a while.

The flow rate is low enough that a 2 litre jug with a hose attached will have enough water in it to wash films in a 1 litre tank.

Sirius Glass · May 10, 2022

MattKing said:
The flow rate is low enough that a 2 litre jug with a hose attached will have enough water in it to wash films in a 1 litre tank.

Thank you, that clarification is needed.

citizenx · May 11, 2022

Thanks everyone! Any idea of this method will also work for C41 washes? Sorry I know this is a B/W forum, but was hoping to avoid posting the same post in two different forums.

I would, of course, keep the jugs of water in a temp controlled bath.

MattKing · May 11, 2022

citizenx said:
Thanks everyone! Any idea of this method will also work for C41 washes? Sorry I know this is a B/W forum, but was hoping to avoid posting the same post in two different forums.

I would, of course, keep the jugs of water in a temp controller bath.

It is best that you start a separate thread in the Colour Film and darkroom sub-forum for the colour development/washing question.
Otherwise the potential for confusion is substantial.

citizenx · May 11, 2022

MattKing said:
It is best that you start a separate thread in the Colour Film and darkroom sub-forum for the colour development/washing question.
Otherwise the potential for confusion is substantial.

True enough, will do, once I tackle color!

pentaxuser · May 11, 2022

citizenx said:
Hi all! Ahead of me developing my first roll of film (starting with B&W, then trying C41), I’ve been going over the developing process when lo and behold, I’ve gone down the rabbit hole with wash methods.

Aside from the environmentally conscious reasons (we are in drought mode in California), my development location will not be near a sink/running water, so I’ll need a reliable method that doesn’t require running water, but that should yield archival results.

From what I’ve read, there was some doubt cast on the Ilford wash method, which according to PE, was formulated under very specific conditions (that may not have universally reproducible results), and from a necessity for water conservation.

1. Is there a Photrio community accepted method that is superior to the Ilford wash method that doesn’t require running water?

2. Whichever method you all recommend, can I use this same method for washing C41 between the developer & fixer, and between the fixer & stabilizer?

Thanks in advance!

As a fellow water conservationist I recommend the Ilford method and what's even better is that Greg Davis, called the Naked Photographer does the same despite being from the U.S. Check out his video where to be honest his conclusion seems to be that either the Ilford or Kodak method is fine

Is there a Photrio community accepted method? Well, as they say, the impossible can happen in 24 hours but miracles may take a little longer

Interesting point on C41 washing and it's one where I cannot now recall what I did as it is so long ago since I had the money to buy colour film but I feel I may have adopted the folowing: 4 washes and dumps of 30 sec and then 2 washes and dumps of 1 min

pentaxuser

Romanko · May 11, 2022

Here is the link to Greg's video that pentaxuser mentioned:
You can also consider 2-bath fix. It will reduce the amount of water required to wash the film.
I use Ilford method.

Doremus Scudder · May 11, 2022

There's a whole 14-page-long sticky thread on just this here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/washing-film-best-environmentally-friendly-way-to-do-it.43248/

Worth reading.

Sirius Glass · May 11, 2022

citizenx said:
Thanks everyone! Any idea of this method will also work for C41 washes? Sorry I know this is a B/W forum, but was hoping to avoid posting the same post in two different forums.

I would, of course, keep the jugs of water in a temp controlled bath.

My post on #2 covers C41 processing with a Jobo processor.

citizenx · May 11, 2022

Sirius Glass said:
Note that I live in West Los Angeles with the same concerns and very hard water.
Temper this with the fact that I am using constant bidirectional rotation of a Jobo processor for C-41, XTOL and Pyrocat HD development. I use eight 30 second to 45 second washes and I have had no problems with residual fixer.

Thanks! Do you mean eight washes of 30-45 seconds of sitting still or agitations throughout ?

Romanko said:
Here is the link to Greg's video that pentaxuser mentioned:
You can also consider 2-bath fix. It will reduce the amount of water required to wash the film.
I use Ilford method.

This was definitely super informative! I think a hybrid of the the Kodak/Ilford method may be in order here (the non-running water method)

Doremus Scudder said:
There's a whole 14-page-long sticky thread on just this here: https://www.photrio.com/forum/threads/washing-film-best-environmentally-friendly-way-to-do-it.43248/

Worth reading.

Oof, I am not sure how I missed this. Slightly embarrassed thank you!

Sirius Glass · May 11, 2022

citizenx said:
Thanks! Do you mean eight washes of 30-45 seconds of sitting still or agitations throughout ?

Constant agitations with the Jobo processor.

wiltw · May 11, 2022

Hypo Clearing Agent !
Hypo Clearing Agent reduces the wash time to 5 minutes for films, 10 minutes for single-weight papers, and 20 minutes for double-weight papers.

MattKing · May 11, 2022

wiltw said:
Hypo Clearing Agent !
Hypo Clearing Agent reduces the wash time to 5 minutes for films, 10 minutes for single-weight papers, and 20 minutes for double-weight papers.

And is unnecessary for RC papers.

wiltw · May 11, 2022

MattKing said:
And is unnecessary for RC papers.

I have not processed B&W enlarging paper in so very long, hearing Matt's comment started to make me wonder...

For film, 50-10 minutes with complete change of water every 5 min. without hypo-clear.
For RC paper a minimum of 30sec in vigorous fresh running water is required., up to 2 minutes

Why is RC paper better than film substrate?

Sirius Glass · May 11, 2022

wiltw said:
I have not processed B&W enlarging paper in so very long, hearing Matt's comment started to make me wonder...

For film, 50-10 minutes with complete change of water every 5 min. without hypo-clear.

For RC paper a minimum of 30sec in vigorous fresh running water is required., up to 2 minutes

Why is RC paper better than film substrate?

Correct - there is no need for hypo clearing agent on film. Film does not absorb chemicals in the way paper especially fiber paper does.

MattKing · May 11, 2022

wiltw said:
I have not processed B&W enlarging paper in so very long, hearing Matt's comment started to make me wonder...

For film, 50-10 minutes with complete change of water every 5 min. without hypo-clear.

For RC paper a minimum of 30sec in vigorous fresh running water is required., up to 2 minutes

Why is RC paper better than film substrate?

I think it is more to do with the differences in the emulsion. It is much easier to get fixer out of RC paper emulsion than film emulsion. The fixing times are also much shorter for RC paper than film.

gone · May 11, 2022

Developing and fixing B&W film isn't so bad environmentally (I reuse the fixer for quite a long time), but washing FB papers can be a problem if a wash aid isn't used. I agree, the Ilford method is just barely acceptable. Besides, there is no one-size-fits-all method for this.

In Florida it wasn't an issue, there was tons of water everywhere. Too much in fact. In Az where I am now, I use the Ilford method, usually, but it's not like I'm a big time photo processing business either.

No matter what method I use for my purposes, it really isn't that much water use. More water goes down the drain every morning from my early AM bath than from any of the photo stuff.

Sirius Glass · May 11, 2022

momus said:
Developing and fixing B&W film isn't so bad environmentally (I reuse the fixer for quite a long time), but washing FB papers can be a problem if a wash aid isn't used. I agree, the Ilford method is just barely acceptable. Besides, there is no one-size-fits-all method for this.

In Florida it wasn't an issue, there was tons of water everywhere. Too much in fact. In Az where I am now, I use the Ilford method, usually, but it's not like I'm a big time photo processing business either.

No matter what method I use for my purposes, it really isn't that much water use. More water goes down the drain every morning from my early AM bath than from any of the photo stuff.

I hear that seniors do not sweat as much as when they were younger, so depending on temperature and activity, some can space out their showers more, are able to save water and continue to do darkroom work.

Pieter12 · May 11, 2022

I would be willing to give up bathing in exchange for darkroom time.

MattKing · May 11, 2022

Pieter12 said:
I would be willing to give up bathing in exchange for darkroom time.

I assume you don't work in a shared darkroom

Definitive & accepted wash method?

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