Defective Acros or bad rodinal?

bvy · Apr 13, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
Or, better film.

Touche. I'm already looking at T-Max 100. Seems like solid stuff. I think Acros is fine, but maybe not a good fit for me. In any case, I still have a backlog of about a dozen rolls that I need to develop.

Thanks for the help and advice, everyone. Really appreciate it.

Ian Grant · Apr 13, 2016

In terms of reciprocity you won't find a better film. In practice I prefer Tmax100 or Delta 100 but stick to Ilford films these days as they are easier to find when traveling.

Ian

Xmas · Apr 14, 2016

Ian Grant said:
In terms of reciprocity you won't find a better film. In practice I prefer Tmax100 or Delta 100 but stick to Ilford films these days as they are easier to find when traveling.

Ian

Hi Ian

I get by with ID68 or Rodinal Foma Fiji or Efke by strict tempering and a water stop.

A pH change is hard on film?

Noel

Photo Engineer · Apr 14, 2016

A pH change is hard on some films, depending on temperature and hardening.

PE

Photo Engineer · Apr 16, 2016

But then if it works for other films, it is not way too long.

PE

Ian Grant · Apr 17, 2016

The longer you leave a "soft emulsion" film in Rodinal the softer the emulsion will get, and a s a consequence you're more likely to have problems.

There's no better developer component than Hydroxide for softening gelatin even when hardened. Ilford and Kodak etc used to recommend soaking prints that had been fixed in a hardening fixer in a weak Sodium Carbonate solution, at pH12 when dilute Rodinal is significantly better at softening emulsion. Many films are particularly well hardened and can tolerate the pH of Rodinal and the presence of free Hydroxide but a few can't.

IAn

37th Exposure · Apr 17, 2016

Ian Grant said:
The longer you leave a "soft emulsion" film in Rodinal the softer the emulsion will get, and a s a consequence you're more likely to have problems.

There's no better developer component than Hydroxide for softening gelatin even when hardened. Ilford and Kodak etc used to recommend soaking prints that had been fixed in a hardening fixer in a weak Sodium Carbonate solution, at pH12 when dilute Rodinal is significantly better at softening emulsion. Many films are particularly well hardened and can tolerate the pH of Rodinal and the presence of free Hydroxide but a few can't.

IAn

Would adding borax to Rodinal as some have proposed alleviate this problem? It's supposed to reduce grain and fog slightly, so slightly that some say it's not worth the extra chemical. But if it prevents softening of the emulsion it might be worthwhile??

37th Exposure · Apr 17, 2016

I forgot to mention, the borax is supposed to buffer the supposedly excessive Ph of Rodinal.

bvy · Apr 17, 2016

Alessandro Serrao said:
Use d-76 (for example) and for the intended time of development and the o.p. will never experience emulsion frilling anymore. Guaranteed.

The original post is from 2010. I bumped this thread because I am having this issue with D76, HC-110 and XTOL.

It's been suggested that I keep tighter temperature control between baths. I can admit that successive baths in my process may differ by three to four degrees -- developer at 68, stop at 71, fixer at 68, for instance. I have trouble believing that a modern emulsion like Acros can't stand up to this, but I've seen enough anecdotal evidence to suggest that it might be true. So my Plan B is to keep all baths within one degree and use a hardening fixer such as Kodafix. I was going to add a prehardening bath of chrome alum, but I first want to see if these two changes alone solve my problem.

Ian Grant · Apr 17, 2016

37th Exposure said:
I forgot to mention, the borax is supposed to buffer the supposedly excessive Ph of Rodinal.

Others have suggested adding Sodium Sulphite.

It's probably better to use a different developer in the first place if your having problems. I used Rodinal for about 20 years for everything from 120 to LF never an issue, and that's with Acros as well, also EFKE PL25.

I read of film/developer issues where I regularly use the same film & developer and get very consistent high quality results, it down to technique. (I've said this before), Over 20 years ago I went on a shoot with another APUG member we both shot Tmax 400 in my case 35mm and he was shooting 120 in an RB67, he was shooting for a magazine article (along with my camera I was the subject). He processed his films in my darkroom in my dev tank and chemistry and his results were appalling exceptionally grainy for 6x7 negatives. I processed my 35mm Tmax 400 a few minutes later and they were perfect (grain as you'd expect fom TMax400 quite fine). The developer was replenished Xtol the ONLY difference was I noticed the only temperature control was for the developer at the start, there were no further checks, stop bat, fix and water wash were used as they were.

That was a sobering lesson, just how much impact poor technique could have on quality, defective films are very rare, and this is not a coating defect.

Ian

Photo Engineer · Apr 17, 2016

Borax will lower pH and Sulfite will increase silver halide solvent action as in D76. Neither would be very good for Rodinal.

However, if you are having problems with common developers with common films, then the film is defective or the process is faulty.

PE

pentaxpete · Apr 18, 2016

Re Philippines Wash water temp -- when I go with Filipina Wife we never need 'hot water showers' as we do in England ---

ZorkiKat said:
The wash water here as well as ambient temperatures average at 28 to 30C all year round.

the Philippine water is so warm already !

Gerald C Koch · Apr 18, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
Not quite. I can stand some formalin on my hand for about 1 minute, but GAA is good for only about 5 seconds and NaOH and H2SO4 get a reaction from in almost instantly.

PE

It has been my experience with concentrated acids that they vary widely in their effect. With concentrated nitric acid you will probably not know that there was contact until the next day when the skin turns yellow. By the way this is the classic test for proteins. With concentrated sulfuric acid the oil on human skin offers some protection. You can walk to the sink and rinse it off before it begins to burn. The reason for this is that concentrated sulfuric acid is not ionized. There is practically no water present to form ions. So there are no hydrogen ions to cause burns. However, the very worst is concentrated hydrochloric acid. This stuff beings to bite immediately and you run to the sink.

I was teaching a freshman chemistry lab when a student fumbled a bottle of concentrated sulfuric acid. We were able to get her under the safety shower. Her wool dress was in the process of dissolving but she suffered no burns to her skin. Had it been hydrochloric acid she would have suffered serious burns.

With 6 molar sodium hydroxide there is little reaction for some minutes. At first the skin will feel slippery. The oil in the skin is being turned to soap. A 10% solution of ammonia (household ammonia) will cause painful burns if left on the skin for more than a few seconds. Concentrated ammonium hydroxide 28% is even worse. Of course be careful with all acids and bases.

Photo Engineer · Apr 18, 2016

I agree with you on HCl, but with conc Sulfuric, I feel a hot spot right away.

With HNO3, I feel it right away, but it does take a day to form the brown spot.

PE

Gerald C Koch · Apr 18, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
I agree with you on HCl, but with conc Sulfuric, I feel a hot spot right away.

With HNO3, I feel it right away, but it does take a day to form the brown spot.

PE

Interesting that our response is different. Dilute sulfuric acid is really tough on clothes. When it dries it becomes concentrated sulfuric acid and chews up the cloth. Next time you wash the shirt or pants they will come out full of holes. Lost 6 very nice shirts because the lab was not air-conditioned and very hot in the summer. People did not wear aprons then. Safety concerns were practically nonexistent during the 60's and 70's.

Ian Grant · Apr 18, 2016

Gerald C Koch said:
Interesting that our response is different. Dilute sulfuric acid is really tough on clothes. When it dries it becomes concentrated sulfuric acid and chews up the cloth. Next time you wash the shirt or pants they will come out full of holes. Lost 6 very nice shirts because the lab was not air-conditioned and very hot in the summer. People did not wear aprons then. Safety concerns were practically nonexistent during the 60's and 70's.

You're making my teeth cringe, I got conc Sulphuric on my teeth.gums as a teenager using a pipette and being lazy Luckily I took swift action . . . . .

Back on topic though it's not defective products, that's something I'm 110% sure of. It's user error or rather lack of tightness in process control.

Both of you, Ron & Gerald I'm sure would have processed many films in the 60's that had nothing like today's hardening, slight temperature deviations could cause reticulation. I know that was my experience particularly as a teenager using ex Government (military) surplus FP3 & HP3. We learn't to keep tight temperature control. That's lost now because most films are well hardened, however Fuji in their wisdom chose an different route with Acros and it's not got the resilience of
Ilford films which have had the best hardening in recent years, but treated with respect it's a an excellent film.

Ian

JW PHOTO · Apr 18, 2016

Ian Grant said:
You're making my teeth cringe, I got conc Sulphuric on my teeth.gums as a teenager using a pipette and being lazy Luckily I took swift action . . . . .

Back on topic though it's not defective products, that's something I'm 110% sure of. It's user error or rather lack of tightness in process control.

Both of you, Ron & Gerald I'm sure would have processed many films in the 60's that had nothing like today's hardening, slight temperature deviations could cause reticulation. I know that was my experience particularly as a teenager using ex Government (military) surplus FP3 & HP3. We learn't to keep tight temperature control. That's lost now because most films are well hardened, however Fuji in their wisdom chose an different route with Acros and it's not got the resilience of
Ilford films which have had the best hardening in recent years, but treated with respect it's a an excellent film.

Ian

Ian,
It's interesting that you say Fuji took a different "route" with Acros when it comes to hardening. I wonder why? I've never had a problem with Acros, but it's not my most used film either. Still, I wonder if Fuji saw a benefit with Acros by going that different route. Maybe it has something to do with the films reciprocity characteristics, grain structure or sensitivity? Who knows, but still wonder anyway. Darn nice film regardless. John W

Photo Engineer · Apr 18, 2016

This is not the first, second or third thread involving problems with Acros.

It may be that this is an old and unchanged product using old chemistry. IDK, but I advise that people take great care with it.

PE

Xmas · Apr 19, 2016

You have been spoilt with pre hardened emulsions.
Temperature or pH shock will stress test any emulsion if your shots are not repeatable you need to be careful.
Ilford call out a tolerance for temperature. But I've always held better than 1C between baths including HCA and wash, and this is at 70C.
I frequently have Fuji or Efke film in a multi tank.
I also need to filter stock bottles.

darkroommike · Nov 15, 2016

Photo Engineer said:
Or, better film.

Years ago I saw something similar. I was processing Neopan 400 for a local high school, shots for their annual (I did say years ago! LOL) and the Neopan 400, especially the leaders, were so soft that I could strip the emulsion off the leaders using my fingers as a squeegee, I contacted Fuji about this and their only suggestion was to stop trying to strip the water off the film. In other words just a "too bad". I have not bought any Fuji black and white film for my own use since 1988. Kodak tech support and customer service from that same era was the best in the world.

bvy · Nov 15, 2016

darkroommike said:
Years ago I saw something similar. I was processing Neopan 400 for a local high school, shots for their annual (I did say years ago! LOL) and the Neopan 400, especially the leaders, were so soft that I could strip the emulsion off the leaders using my fingers as a squeegee, I contacted Fuji about this and their only suggestion was to stop trying to strip the water off the film. In other words just a "too bad". I have not bought any Fuji black and white film for my own use since 1988. Kodak tech support and customer service from that same era was the best in the world.

I love Acros but it does require careful and special treatment. I use a hardening bath before developer and a hardening fixer. Too much trouble really.

DREW WILEY · Nov 15, 2016

This is all news to me. I shoot ACROS all the way from 35mm to 8x10, but especially in 120 and 4x5, and have never even once had an emulsion
issue, or any kind of issues. A very reliable, easy film in my opinion. I use an alkaline non-hardening fixer (TF4), but also tanning pyro developer.

bvy · Nov 15, 2016

DREW WILEY said:
This is all news to me. I shoot ACROS all the way from 35mm to 8x10, but especially in 120 and 4x5, and have never even once had an emulsion
issue, or any kind of issues. A very reliable, easy film in my opinion. I use an alkaline non-hardening fixer (TF4), but also tanning pyro developer.

I have multiple examples I can show you. Maybe you're not looking hard enough. Or maybe you're just lucky.

pdeeh · Nov 15, 2016

developed dozens of rolls of acros 120 and 135, some in Rodinal, mostly pushed a bit in caffenol. never seen a problem. no special handling. lovely film.

Jim Noel · Nov 15, 2016

Ian Grant said:
Because Rodinal has a high pH, and also contains hydroxide, it swells and softens the emulsion more at the development stage, only a hardening fixer (or stop bath) would counteract that softening.

It's no myth that films can suffer actually reticulation or even emulsion frilling & lifting off, or excessive grain through micro reticulation caused by sudden temperature shocks.

What is true is that many modern films are so well hardened traditional reticulation is rarely seen. but in a separate thread last week a number of people admitted getting excessive grain with Tmax400 when they neglected to control the overall process temperatures tightly.

Different developers can make a very significant difference, Pyrocat is a tanning developer so even used at 26° C (my summer dev/fix/wash temperature) Acros is no problem, the developers is hardeneing the emulsion rather than softening.

Ian

Excess grain is not reticulation.

Defective Acros or bad rodinal?

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